LEO guys, serious question

[V8tt]

There is no such thing as a necessary evil.

War is the first thing that comes to my mind, without even giving the term much thought.

"Me too"[/img]

Lol..you liken a Nazi War Criminal to a TSA screener looking at XRays and doing pat down searches? You don't even belong in this conversation.

You would have been a willing participant in this abuse. On your best days you might only have violated the natural rights of hundreds of individuals, rather than thousands - or perhaps more. After a hard day of interjecting yourself into other's private affairs, you'd return home happy in the self-assured feeling that you are an important cog in the safety and security of the United States, oblivious that you have become an enemy of the citizenry you try to protect. When questioned, you would feign to dislike your job and the discomfort you cause your brethren, citing that it is necessary for their protection.

YOU are the problem with the United States.

I assume you are referring to John Locke and his Social Contract when using the term "natural rights". If you are, then you might want to reacquaint yourself with what his philosophy is pertaining to the Social Contract. In fact, the Declaration of Independence has facets of it that are from/pertaining to Locke's philosophy. In fact, his belief is that a government is granted by the people a certain amount of authority to protect its people from harm. It's been a long time since studying Locke, so I am a little rusty, but the main idea is here for you to try and understand.

How do you differentiate LEOs from TSA screeners in your flakey example above? Or did you write the above in some failed effort to be witty and cute?

You say that I am the problem with the U.S. over a disagreement about authority vs. perceived authority when you have no idea who I am, what I have done for this country, or my overall belief system? Nice play.

Unfortunately TSA has been nothing but a huge failure, at an enormous cost to taxpayers. I can only imagine how worse it will get when this is the norm all over the country. Im glad you feel more secure but in reality your just sacrificing your rights for that "feeling".

You will get no argument from me that the TSA has drawn attention to themselves over failed policies, retarded screeners abusing authority, and an overall shitty job. What would be your suggestion to keep airports, planes safe? Who would you put in place to make sure that people don't get on planes with guns, knives, bombs, etc etc? I am not saying that they are the answer, but it has to be someone...and what do you call them? At that point aren't you simply rebranding the TSA with a different name? AND if you do train them better, give them guns, and more authority (ie arest powers) then wouldn't the be federal officers (of the police kind)? So at that point do you not think there would be any funny shit going on? Police fuck up too. It is the nature of retards to do dumb shit, and I have met some/heard of/read about some retarded cops. As far as sacrifice...we ALL sacrifice when we get on planes. Is it your thought that being patted down is a loss of a right? Or having your bag searched? What about the employer that reserves the right to search your bags before exiting the premises? Are you giving up rights to work there? I work a at building here in Ft Worth where ALL people go through metal detectors and get ran with a wand by a Marshal before entering. Do they lose their rights when trying pay a water bill? Or did the city do this in response to a loon going into the Mayor's office causing some shit? And are they justified? I say yes. It is their responsibility to keep citizen's safe.

I wasn't referring to the TSA at ferries or airports, I was talking about their VIPR units on the roadways, V8TT

My apologies then. FTR I don't think they should be on the roads/highways.

Lmfao @ v8tt. Ignorant. Oblivious. He'd fit right in at the TSA. You do realize all the "authority" they have is limited to FLIGHTS, right? They have no authority on highways. Not in what you posted.

Surely, you also realize you are no more safe now than before the TSA and Homeland Security came along, right? People still get through with bombs, much more often than you think. People get through with guns. Bullets. Drugs. Etc. the TsA is there to violate rights, and make people think they are safe, while harassing little old ladies, and letting would be bombers waltz right through. There is an article out that would blow your mind, but I don't have time to dig it up.

DFWmustangs never fails to find someone to call another names in regards to varying belief systems. "Fit right in at the TSA, hardly. I have been in some facet of of law enforcement, including a degree in criminal law, since 1993. TSA is not a place I believe that I would fit in.

They DO have authority on the highways. Go to their website and do some reading. I don't have time to find the exact page for you, but essentially you are wrong and have no clue about that which you speak. Typical of someone who opens a rebuttal with name calling.

I am sure that people do still get through with items. It happens in other facets of law enforcement as well. Do you think it is ok to have metal detectors/pat downs upon triggers in schools? Wouldn't those kids' rights be violated by doing this? Where is the difference? And hell, kids must go to school where as you don't have to fly, so this should be an even bigger issue to you. Theyn aren't given the option to say no. You argument will be, "but those are cops in school, not TSA agents". In that argument, does it make a difference? Are rights not violated because of a gun and a TCLEOSE cert.?

In a nutshell the Fed Govt has granted the TSA to do patdowns/xray/wand etc and your rights aren't being violated when they do this in the performance of their duties. There will always be the select few who abuse authority in ANY sector of enforcement.

[Txstang1]

.....

[bcoop]

Lmfao @ v8tt. Ignorant. Oblivious. He'd fit right in at the TSA. You do realize all the "authority" they have is limited to FLIGHTS, right? They have no authority on highways. Not in what you posted.

Surely, you also realize you are no more safe now than before the TSA and Homeland Security came along, right? People still get through with bombs, much more often than you think. People get through with guns. Bullets. Drugs. Etc. the TsA is there to violate rights, and make people think they are safe, while harassing little old ladies, and letting would be bombers waltz right through. There is an article out that would blow your mind, but I don't have time to dig it up.

[UserX]

In before the "if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" comments. This is fucking bullshit. And I know if one of these rehabs ever stopped and hassled me, I would fucking lose it.

[Forever_frost]

I wasn't referring to the TSA at ferries or airports, I was talking about their VIPR units on the roadways, V8TT

[J&T's 82]

I am very interested in this, and will have to do some research when I get back Tuesday.

From what I know off the top of my head, they have no powers on public roadways, but I'll have to see how they are commissioned, and what powers they are granted.

Since they are federal, there are some limitations that come to mind, but I don't want to spread any bullshit.

I will try again...Not sure how my post above got messed up.

Back for as long as I can remember, the Galveston County Sheriffs Dept took care of the ferry landings between Galveston and Port Bolivar. Deputies would randomly check peoples cars before they got on the ferry and also write tickets for no inspection and tags. The last time I was on the Bolivar side I was flagged to be inspected. When I pulled up to the inspection point I was greeted by the two Department of Homeland Security Agents. They had me do the normal routine e.g (hood, trunk and questions). I guess I could have refused the search but I wasn't going to get on the ferry and would have had to drive up to High Island and up to Winnie to get back to Houston. That was not something I was willing to do at 7PM on a Sunday.

[woodstock]

This is a necessary evil for the times we live in. As usual, if you don't like it then don't fly. I want people checked for box cutters and shoe bombs.

Unfortunately TSA has been nothing but a huge failure, at an enormous cost to taxpayers. I can only imagine how worse it will get when this is the norm all over the country. Im glad you feel more secure but in reality your just sacrificing your rights for that "feeling".

[BERNIE MOSFET]

They are called the TRANSPORTATION Safety Administration. Just because they started at and are mainly in airports doesn't mean that it is the only place they can be.



Years ago, I actually went through the testing and background process. I didn't accept because it required me to move. I will say that the background inv./pretesting is pretty involved. You have to interview in front of panels, run scenarios, stress tests, etc etc. Then you take a written test. I have also worked in security and the requirements for that are laughable at best.



Really? Do you believe for a second what you are asking? And to call them thugs...really? They are doing a JOB that they were hired to do and granted a certain amount of authority to do it with. Your mad at them for doing what they are hired to do? Do they have LEO authority? No. Are they LE by definition? There are laws and they enforce them. Yes. Are they cops? No. They are granted the authority to do searches as necessary. I caveat this with...the Federal Air Marshals are part of the TSA...so yes...the TSA can arrest/detain you for doing stupid shit.

Do I think they belong on the streets/highways? No. Keep them in the airports. A chief complaint here is the misconduct. Fair enough...some of them are down right stupid. But all I have to do is look over at DPD and find plenty of stupid cops/ex-cops. Stupidity follows the person, not the badge.



Might want to do some reading.



§ 1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection.
top
(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.

(b) An individual must provide his or her full name, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when—

(1) The individual, or a person on the individual's behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, or

(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.

(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis.

[73 FR 64061, Oct. 28, 2008]

§ 1540.109 Prohibition against interference with screening personnel.
top
No person may interfere with, assault, threaten, or intimidate screening personnel in the performance of their screening duties under this subchapter.

If they make it to the highways you can bet your ass their authority will prevent any impunity from flipping them off and driving away. Can they chase you down and arrest you for it. Probably not, but that cop they call sure will.

More reading: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+%2...nt-a0148279782

I am surely NOT on the side of the TSA and I fully agree that they sometimes overstep their bounds, but when I am going through those checkpoints with my wife and son, it is a good feeling to know that the people in front of/behind me are getting checked as well. This is a necessary evil for the times we live in. As usual, if you don't like it then don't fly. I want people checked for box cutters and shoe bombs.

You guys sound like you are all carrying burning torches and have not a clue about the law or the legal authority granted to the TSA by the FEDERAL government.

You would have been a willing participant in this abuse. On your best days you might only have violated the natural rights of hundreds of individuals, rather than thousands - or perhaps more. After a hard day of interjecting yourself into other's private affairs, you'd return home happy in the self-assured feeling that you are an important cog in the safety and security of the United States, oblivious that you have become an enemy of the citizenry you try to protect. When questioned, you would feign to dislike your job and the discomfort you cause your brethren, citing that it is necessary for their protection.

YOU are the problem with the United States.

[Armedtrigger01]

^^^^^ lol ya I was thinking the same thing

[Shorty]

Really? Do you believe for a second what you are asking? And to call them thugs...really? They are doing a JOB that they were hired to do and granted a certain amount of authority to do it with. Your mad at them for doing what they are hired to do?

"Me too"

There is no such thing as a necessary evil.

[V8tt]

TSA representative Nico Melendez confirmed to the Los Angeles Times that these VIPR teams have also branched out to conduct security checks at subways, trains and cruise ship ports.

They are called the TRANSPORTATION Safety Administration. Just because they started at and are mainly in airports doesn't mean that it is the only place they can be.

Many TSOs, she points out, have had less training that it takes to become a security guard, let alone a law enforcement officer, and yet they stand equipped with uniforms and badges, asserting the authority to scan, X-ray and even pat down travelers in ever-more invasive ways.

Years ago, I actually went through the testing and background process. I didn't accept because it required me to move. I will say that the background inv./pretesting is pretty involved. You have to interview in front of panels, run scenarios, stress tests, etc etc. Then you take a written test. I have also worked in security and the requirements for that are laughable at best.

So, my question. If we are accosted by these thugs wearing a badge, what happens if we tell them to get bent? Do they have the rights you guys have? They aren't even LE yet they are performing searches and the like? I would honestly be inclined to just flipping them the deuce and rolling out. Do they have the power to arrest?

Really? Do you believe for a second what you are asking? And to call them thugs...really? They are doing a JOB that they were hired to do and granted a certain amount of authority to do it with. Your mad at them for doing what they are hired to do? Do they have LEO authority? No. Are they LE by definition? There are laws and they enforce them. Yes. Are they cops? No. They are granted the authority to do searches as necessary. I caveat this with...the Federal Air Marshals are part of the TSA...so yes...the TSA can arrest/detain you for doing stupid shit.

Do I think they belong on the streets/highways? No. Keep them in the airports. A chief complaint here is the misconduct. Fair enough...some of them are down right stupid. But all I have to do is look over at DPD and find plenty of stupid cops/ex-cops. Stupidity follows the person, not the badge.

HELL NO. They have no authority and are likened to mall security.

Might want to do some reading.

Right, so LEO's question. If we get stopped by one of the VIPR groups, what do we do? Say 'fuck off' and drive off? Do they have the authority to detain you?

§ 1540.107 Submission to screening and inspection.
top
(a) No individual may enter a sterile area or board an aircraft without submitting to the screening and inspection of his or her person and accessible property in accordance with the procedures being applied to control access to that area or aircraft under this subchapter.

(b) An individual must provide his or her full name, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, date of birth, and gender when—

(1) The individual, or a person on the individual's behalf, makes a reservation for a covered flight, as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, or

(2) The individual makes a request for authorization to enter a sterile area.

(c) An individual may not enter a sterile area or board an aircraft if the individual does not present a verifying identity document as defined in §1560.3 of this chapter, when requested for purposes of watch list matching under §1560.105(c), unless otherwise authorized by TSA on a case-by-case basis.

[73 FR 64061, Oct. 28, 2008]

§ 1540.109 Prohibition against interference with screening personnel.
top
No person may interfere with, assault, threaten, or intimidate screening personnel in the performance of their screening duties under this subchapter.

If they make it to the highways you can bet your ass their authority will prevent any impunity from flipping them off and driving away. Can they chase you down and arrest you for it. Probably not, but that cop they call sure will.

More reading: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+%2...nt-a0148279782

I am surely NOT on the side of the TSA and I fully agree that they sometimes overstep their bounds, but when I am going through those checkpoints with my wife and son, it is a good feeling to know that the people in front of/behind me are getting checked as well. This is a necessary evil for the times we live in. As usual, if you don't like it then don't fly. I want people checked for box cutters and shoe bombs.

You guys sound like you are all carrying burning torches and have not a clue about the law or the legal authority granted to the TSA by the FEDERAL government.

[Forever_frost]

I can't wait to hear, thanks for checking Matt. I know where I stand with cops and that I can deny them searches, however TSA......

[LANTIRN]

[QUOTE=J&T's 82;612103]

I am very interested in this, and will have to do some research when I get back Tuesday.

From what I know off the top of my head, they have no powers on public roadways, but I'll have to see how they are commissioned, and what powers they are granted.

Since they are federal, there are some limitations that come to mind, but I Home Land Security agents. I guess If I refused the only thing that they could do would be deny me access to the ferry. However, going all the way back to High Island and up to Winnie to get back to Houston was not something that I wanted to do at 7PM on a Sunday.

What?

[J&T's 82]

[QUOTE=03trubluGT;612092]I am very interested in this, and will have to do some research when I get back Tuesday.

From what I know off the top of my head, they have no powers on public roadways, but I'll have to see how they are commissioned, and what powers they are granted.

Since they are federal, there are some limitations that come to mind, but I Home Land Security agents. I guess If I refused the only thing that they could do would be deny me access to the ferry. However, going all the way back to High Island and up to Winnie to get back to Houston was not something that I wanted to do at 7PM on a Sunday.