408 vs aftermarket 302 block

[STROKD]

Roflmao. Damn

[Diabolic]

Doesn't Brooks have an F4TE block pushing north of 1000 hp?

[bubba stiff]

my 408 has done the job for me for the past 5yrs without rebuild. not street car though. i am pushing about 400horses..go for it kid

[turbostang]

Doesn't Brooks have an F4TE block pushing north of 1000 hp?

Had, well.. not really mine. Clifton's old car ran 5.40's and had a LOT of passes on it, the mains were perfect when it finally dropped a valve. (no fault of the block, obviously).

My car is a 8.2" motor, makes ~1000.

Dustin's car (95cobrasvt?) makes close to 500 RWHP and has been together for years. N/A 408.

[5.0stang88]

Sweet, I'm going for it. Already started pricing stuff out

Sent front my SGS3 Epic 4GLTE Touch

[jyro]

another opinion from corral.net

"The 351W was never meant to be a performance engine, the aftermarket has attempted to 'make' it one, but you can't make a rusted car look better no matter how much you polish it. Its true that decent power levels can still be attained, even using stock parts, but you CANNOT make a race engine from a production block 351W and expect any degree of reliability. A good street engine, yes. An 8000+ rpm race engine, or high horsepower low rpm stroker, hell no. I just recently inspected my 408 after about a year of racing. Not much racing at that. I could already see signs of cap walk, and I have some of the best parts money can buy invested in the short block. Then engine has never seen much over 6500 rpm.

We also inspected a friend's 4-bolt 351C thats regularly shifted on 8000+ rpm. No light weight pistons or rods, although they are heavy duty aftermarket pieces. No signs of cap walk. Thats the difference between a engine that was originally designed by Ford as a race engine, and one that Ford originally intended for a truck. "
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-...dowel-kit.html

I have run 6 351w blocks, all production . 1969, 1975, 1974 and 2 roller 351 blocks, one from Brooks that he bent 8 rods on. I am currently running a roller 351w. my combo is a street 174 roots with 6 different pullys, 1.5 lbs to 12lbs, running methanol and a 950hp alky holley with tfs-r heads and 12.5/1 pistons.
the 69 block was 10/1 and ended up breaking the crank because of the svo adapter main bearings but, it didn't show sings of cap walk, it didn't make but a few passes. some of the others lasted a few years but all showed sings of cap walk.
I usually keep it around 8 lbs boost, I can run 6.30-40 all night. Back when my son was around we raced every weekend bracket racing sometimes making 35 passes a weekend. I have 2 spare motors in the works. Looking to race more in the next few years.

[Dacotua]

Well I've decided for the 408. I will try to come as close to 500rwhp with no power adder and rise like that for a while.
And why would it magically break down when I've rebuilt it.
I'm not planning to go cross country or anything, I mainly drive in town few bikes a day under normal circumstances.

Sent front my SGS3 Epic 4GLTE Touch

High Performance Engines are NOT Reliable.

You build one, and things just happen. One day you fire it up, and it starts to over heat. You didn't count on the stock cooling system not to be up to snuff.

You fix the cooling system, New Radiator, New Water Pump, New High Volume Electric Fans.

Now the Transmission starts to sing. You replace the Transmission with a Heavy Duty Version

A week later, your clutch starts to slip. You think, I just put a new HD Clutch in the car. You take it apart and find out the clutch machined itself into the stock flywheel requiring you to buy a new billet flywheel and clutch.

Car runs great, but you keep hearing a knocking sound when you hit light bumps. You take a week to figure out what it is. A wheel bearing in the rear axle took a dump eating the axle shaft with it. You replace all the bearings in the rear axle, replace the axles with some mosers and put a girdle on the rear cover.

A month or so later you break all the bolts which holds the alternator bracket to the head. The stock style bolts were never designed to hold the forces that your belts are putting to these when you floor your car. You replace all the bolts with high strength bolts.

Next Problem pops up. You start getting a bad vibration. After investigating you discover you slightly bent your drive shaft. You replace the driveshaft with a upgraded HD Unit.


Do you get the idea yet?

Buy a daily driver before you modify your car. Your car will almost always break on Saturday night and you can't get the parts until Weds or Thursday (Summit and Jegs aren't local, and all the speed shops don't have what you need in stock.)

Once you finally replace every freaking part on the car, and discover that you get a whopping 10 miles per gallon or less, you'll bitch about the fuel mileage.

Once you have a daily driver, and you break your hot rod, you won't give a crap needing to fix it RIGHT NOW. You'll take your time, and not rush repairs.

[STROKD]

"The 351W was never meant to be a performance engine, the aftermarket has attempted to 'make' it one, but you can't make a rusted car look better no matter how much you polish it. Its true that decent power levels can still be attained, even using stock parts, but you CANNOT make a race engine from a production block 351W and expect any degree of reliability. A good street engine, yes. An 8000+ rpm race engine, or high horsepower low rpm stroker, hell no. I just recently inspected my 408 after about a year of racing. Not much racing at that. I could already see signs of cap walk, and I have some of the best parts money can buy invested in the short block. Then engine has never seen much over 6500 rpm.

We also inspected a friend's 4-bolt 351C thats regularly shifted on 8000+ rpm. No light weight pistons or rods, although they are heavy duty aftermarket pieces. No signs of cap walk. Thats the difference between a engine that was originally designed by Ford as a race engine, and one that Ford originally intended for a truck. "
http://forums.corral.net/forums/5-0-...dowel-kit.html

I have run 6 351w blocks, all production . 1969, 1975, 1974 and 2 roller 351 blocks, one from Brooks that he bend 8 rods on. I am currently running a roller 351w. my combo is a street 174 roots with 6 different pullys, 1.5 lbs to 12lbs, running methanol and a 950hp alky holley with tfs-r heads and 12.5/1 pistons.
the 69 block was 10/1 and ended up breaking the crank because of the svo adapter main bearings but, it didn't show sings of cap walk, it didn't make but a few passes. some of the others lasted a few years but all showed sings of cap walk.
I usually keep it around 8 lbs boost, I can run 6.30-40 all night. Back when my son was around we raced every weekend bracket racing sometimes making 35 passes a weekend. I have 2 spare motors in the works. Looking to race more in the next few years.

Why do u keep using production blocks? Is it a racing class thing?
My sportsman took a fuck ton of abuse and was broken internally most of it's 25k mile service... I'm not worried about ever breaking my W block. Its good for over 2500hp according to my engine builder. Seems to me if you bought a good block you wouldn't need 3-5 back ups.

[Diabolic]

High Performance Engines are NOT Reliable.

You build one, and things just happen. One day you fire it up, and it starts to over heat. You didn't count on the stock cooling system not to be up to snuff.

You fix the cooling system, New Radiator, New Water Pump, New High Volume Electric Fans.

Now the Transmission starts to sing. You replace the Transmission with a Heavy Duty Version

A week later, your clutch starts to slip. You think, I just put a new HD Clutch in the car. You take it apart and find out the clutch machined itself into the stock flywheel requiring you to buy a new billet flywheel and clutch.

Car runs great, but you keep hearing a knocking sound when you hit light bumps. You take a week to figure out what it is. A wheel bearing in the rear axle took a dump eating the axle shaft with it. You replace all the bearings in the rear axle, replace the axles with some mosers and put a girdle on the rear cover.

A month or so later you break all the bolts which holds the alternator bracket to the head. The stock style bolts were never designed to hold the forces that your belts are putting to these when you floor your car. You replace all the bolts with high strength bolts.

Next Problem pops up. You start getting a bad vibration. After investigating you discover you slightly bent your drive shaft. You replace the driveshaft with a upgraded HD Unit.


Do you get the idea yet?

Buy a daily driver before you modify your car. Your car will almost always break on Saturday night and you can't get the parts until Weds or Thursday (Summit and Jegs aren't local, and all the speed shops don't have what you need in stock.)

Once you finally replace every freaking part on the car, and discover that you get a whopping 10 miles per gallon or less, you'll bitch about the fuel mileage.

Once you have a daily driver, and you break your hot rod, you won't give a crap needing to fix it RIGHT NOW. You'll take your time, and not rush repairs.

Well it comes down to the depth of your pockets and the planning involved. Most of the things that happened to you could have been avoided if you had planned better up front. If all you care about is the go then yes it can become frustrating. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's easy to go fast cheap, because your sanity will suffer. Ed Curtis has a saying on his settings that says:

If it's cheap and reliable it isn't fast.
If it's fast and cheap then it isn't reliable.
If it's fast and reliable, it isn't cheap.

[Dacotua]

Well it comes down to the depth of your pockets and the planning involved. Most of the things that happened to you could have been avoided if you had planned better up front. If all you care about is the go then yes it can become frustrating. Don't kid yourself into thinking it's easy to go fast cheap, because your sanity will suffer. Ed Curtis has a saying on his settings that says:

If it's cheap and reliable it isn't fast.
If it's fast and cheap then it isn't reliable.
If it's fast and reliable, it isn't cheap.

At the power levels the original poster requested.

Hes better off going out and buying a new Shebly GT-500 or Vette Grand Sport.

If you want power and reliability. By the time you spend the money on the entire power train, suspension, brakes, etc, and figure out your time. Your better off with one of the new cars. Plus the hotrod you build will not be worth the money you dump into it. I know about class car/hot rod insurance but that requires your hotrod NOT to exceed x many miles a year and another daily driver.

Race cars are not reliable. You always mess with them.

[Diabolic]

Race cars are not reliable, but a 400-500hp street car is plenty quick for a daily, and can be deadly reliable.

[5.0stang88]

Damn, I respect all the replies, lots of knowledge and this I didn't think about.
I just wanted to hear yes I can do it, easy and cheap and then do it lol.
What's crazy is all the other cars rolling in the street in Houston and on YouTube, I thought why can't I have a fast street car, you know

Sent front my SGS3 Epic 4GLTE Touch

[jyro]

money

Why do u keep using production blocks? Is it a racing class thing?
My sportsman took a fuck ton of abuse and was broken internally most of it's 25k mile service... I'm not worried about ever breaking my W block. Its good for over 2500hp according to my engine builder. Seems to me if you bought a good block you wouldn't need 3-5 back ups.

as long as we keep the times in the 6.50 range, it will last years. It's when we race at fun ford or the dfw stangs races to let it all hangout so to speak that we get in trouble. We only broke one block and it was mainbearing related using a svo nodular iron crank. We did spin a rod bearing and I think it was maincap related. We keep the rpm low unless we happen to be running 4.10's and want to race at ennis for fun ford, or the dreaded pinks all out or what ever the fuck that lieing "Rich" bastard called that race at Ennis and took the top 16 instead of the top 32 and chooze the dam 12 second class. we over rpm'd our blower running 10.0s and popping the limiter at 7200 crossing the line. That put our blower speed at 21,000, it's rated for 14,000. should have changed the pully but whatever.

But back to the block, I would think it pointless to put a stock crank in a $2300 block so that would be another G for the crank. I don't have that kind of dough. I trade out all machining and balancing for my ac work so the out of pocket money is nill cept for parts like eagle h-beam rods speed pro moly rings, clevite bearings and ect. anyway, I'm glad you have the block. I never will.

[turbostang]

Just for the records, it all depends on WHAT kind of power adder it is too.

That block that jyro had, that came from me, had a couple hundred passes and thousands of street miles - but at that time it ran 6.0's@115 in my car, with a/c, p/s, p/b etc.. I shifted at 6300 and it made over 700RWHP..but had twin 63's on it then.

[Trick Pony]

Damn, I respect all the replies, lots of knowledge and this I didn't think about.
I just wanted to hear yes I can do it, easy and cheap and then do it lol.
What's crazy is all the other cars rolling in the street in Houston and on YouTube, I thought why can't I have a fast street car, you know

Sent front my SGS3 Epic 4GLTE Touch

There's nothing wrong with having a fast street car. It's just not smart if it's your only car and your daily driver. My Vette makes 700rwhp on a pretty mild setup and has never broken down as far as the motor is concerned, but I've bent a driveshaft, shredded the blower belt, grenaded an aftermarket diff, had no fuel pressure because of a bad fuse holder that melted the fuse in the power wiring for the aftermarket fuel system, etc. It's not just the engine that determines reliability.