Couple Vortech Tune questions!

[turbostang]

Because the EEC still thinks it has the stock ecu. Fucking read my goddamn posts you stupid fuck. To make an aftermarket maf work, you must change the maf transfer table around.

YOU CAN RUN ANY SIZE MAF WITH ANY SIZE OF INJECTORS

First off, my sack - lick it.

Next, you can take your personal insults and leave with them and not come back, or act like a civilized individual and contribute to the post with some sort of factual information.

Last warning.

Now, The EEC still thinks it has the stock ECU? huh? The EEC (electronic engine control) is the ECU, Einstein.

No, for the 1000th time, you can plug in an aftermarket MAF and use the corresponding injectors and it will work FINE. Done it a million times at least.

Yes, you can run any maf and any injectors as long as you have a way to edit the parameters in the ECU to tell it you've changed the injectors or MAF - done that a million times as well.

[majorownage]

First off, my sack - lick it.

Next, you can take your personal insults and leave with them and not come back, or act like a civilized individual and contribute to the post with some sort of factual information.

Last warning.

Now, The EEC still thinks it has the stock ECU? huh? The EEC (electronic engine control) is the ECU, Einstein.

No, for the 1000th time, you can plug in an aftermarket MAF and use the corresponding injectors and it will work FINE. Done it a million times at least.

Yes, you can run any maf and any injectors as long as you have a way to edit the parameters in the ECU to tell it you've changed the injectors or MAF - done that a million times as well.

I didn't mean to say ECU, meant maf.

And I agree, but why do you insist that mafs are calibrated with injectors?
The insult was for me "trying" to blow his car up.

[Grape]

using stock electronics to control boosted engines may save money in the beginning, but after 3294732342 sets of head gaskets, it's cheaper to buy a real engine management system.

[Grape]

I didn't mean to say ECU, meant maf.

And I agree, but why do you insist that mafs are calibrated with injectors?
The insult was for me "trying" to blow his car up.

because the pw is a constant from the ECU to the injector, you have to trick a larger injector into pulsing shorter at idle or it will be rich as fuck.

[majorownage]

because the pw is a constant from the ECU to the injector, you have to trick a larger injector into pulsing shorter at idle or it will be rich as fuck.

I'm not arguing that, people are saying mafs are calibrated to a certain set of injectors.

They are not calibrated to shit. All they do is report a voltage back to the EEC.

[turbostang]

I didn't mean to say ECU, meant maf.

And I agree, but why do you insist that mafs are calibrated with injectors?
The insult was for me "trying" to blow his car up.

Why do you insist they are not? Unless you're trying to twist the interpretation of 'calibrated' along with 'with' or 'for'.....

I did not say they are calibrated WITH injectors, they are calibrated FOR injectors.

If they are not calibrated for injectors, why are they sold for certain sizes? FWIW, calibration can be done in the way of different tubes, different electronics within the maf etc..

[majorownage]

Why do you insist they are not? Unless you're trying to twist the interpretation of 'calibrated' along with 'with' or 'for'.....

I did not say they are calibrated WITH injectors, they are calibrated FOR injectors.

If they are not calibrated for injectors, why are they sold for certain sizes? FWIW, calibration can be done in the way of different tubes, different electronics within the maf etc..

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here.

90mm stock terminator maf uses 39ers
90mm stock lighting maf uses 42ers

Same part number. So tell me, how is a maf calibrated for a certain set of injectors?
It's not.

[VaderTT]

Although the cobra injectors are "39lb" that's actually 39lb @ 39psi fuel pressure. The 42lb injectors are 42lb @ 43.5psi fuel pressure. When you do the calculation for the 39lb @ 43.5psi, they're actually 41.2lb injectors. That would make them 47.9lb @ 4bar (58.8psi) fuel pressure (our stock fuel pressure), and they'd be 53.5lb with a 5bar (73.5psi) fuel pressure regulator.

FYI...continue MAF argument

[Andy@PrimeTuning]

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here.

90mm stock terminator maf uses 39ers
90mm stock lighting maf uses 42ers

Same part number. So tell me, how is a maf calibrated for a certain set of injectors?
It's not.

I'm pretty sure Turbostang (Brooks) is referring to aftermarket MAFs not stock Ford Part #s.

Aftermarket companies do have ways of calibrating MAFs its not a very precise way of doing things but it can get you sort of close on certain combinations.

They basically scale the 5v curve with resistors to trick the computer into leaning the car out at lower airflow levels to compensate for the larger injectors.

C&L does this with different size metering tubes.

With this way of doing things the "Scaling" is less effective when used with larger and larger injectors. Less margin for error. When used with smaller injectors like 30s or 24s it can sometimes work OK.

This was the only option in years past, now that we have full tuning ability it is not needed anymore. We can now use any size high-impedence injector with any MAF.

[turbostang]

Run stock injectors. Boost refrence the fuel pressure so that there is a constant delta across the rails. Lighting suck through maf. You might be able to get away with the stock, but it really starts pegging around 400hp...

There is no such thing as "calibrated mafs and injectors." Basically what reallys happens is, a bigger maf = run lean, so bigger injectors are added. The stock ECU has no idea that it has bigger injectors or bigger mafs, and the idea is to cancel each other out.

60 psi delta and you will hold 400 rwhp with 24s

If you run your stock maf and injectors with a boost referenced fuel, you can run your stock tune. (The stock tune is very rich to begin.)

Here's the first part - He can't switch injectors around like you've mentioned, it'll barely run. His car is OE 24's. The LMAF is setup for 42's to begin with and to top it all off, he's going to run 39's. See where I'm going with this? It won't work without a "t00n".

Remember the key to make an injector flow is pressure difference across the injector. With boost, it is fighting against you.

Stock the fuel pressure is referenced, but unfortunately the stock regulator doesn't work with boost, only vacuum.

as stated a few times above, your info is inaccurate.

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here.

90mm stock terminator maf uses 39ers
90mm stock lighting maf uses 42ers

Same part number. So tell me, how is a maf calibrated for a certain set of injectors?
It's not.

Now, on to the problem at hand. I can't believe you're actually arguing this - You've proven it in your own damn post. Two different vehicles, with two STOCK MAF's... no shit, if it has the same Pn, it's pretty likely it's the same damn MAF? Your FIRST fucking post said (and it's bolded above for clarity) - that There is no such thing as "calibrated mafs and injectors." which is incorrect for more than one reason.. your only saving grace is the fact you've chosen to argue your point on two STOCK MAF's. It's fairly obvious that the transfer function is altered in the ECU on those two examples.. but your blanket statement of There is no such thing as "calibrated mafs and injectors." is 100% inaccurate.

[turbostang]

I'm pretty sure Turbostang (Brooks) is referring to aftermarket MAFs not stock Ford Part #s.

Aftermarket companies do have ways of calibrating MAFs its not a very precise way of doing things but it can get you sort of close on certain combinations.

They basically scale the 5v curve with resistors to trick the computer into leaning the car out at lower airflow levels to compensate for the larger injectors.

C&L does this with different size metering tubes.

With this way of doing things the "Scaling" is less effective when used with larger and larger injectors. Less margin for error. When used with smaller injectors like 30s or 24s it can sometimes work OK.

This was the only option in years past, now that we have full tuning ability it is not needed anymore. We can now use any size high-impedence injector with any MAF.

Motherfucker, at least someone understands.

I'll further add to my statement, NO - it's not a totally accurate way of scaling fuel vs. airflow - but as you've said here, it will get you close and keep you from pulling ALL of your hair out as opposed to starting from scratch... then again, if you're real serious about tuning, you'd be looking at something other than a MAF setup.

[Andy@PrimeTuning]

using stock electronics to control boosted engines may save money in the beginning, but after 3294732342 sets of head gaskets, it's cheaper to buy a real engine management system.

Its hard to think about but most of the Stock ECUs have more control and better street manners than most of any aftermarket engine managment systems.

For a street car a stock computer is very effective till 700-1000 hp.

Now it doesn't have full closed loop wideband feedback or boost dependent fuel tables like a XFI or BS3 but it does work very well.

[turbostang]

Although the cobra injectors are "39lb" that's actually 39lb @ 39psi fuel pressure. The 42lb injectors are 42lb @ 43.5psi fuel pressure. When you do the calculation for the 39lb @ 43.5psi, they're actually 41.2lb injectors. That would make them 47.9lb @ 4bar (58.8psi) fuel pressure (our stock fuel pressure), and they'd be 53.5lb with a 5bar (73.5psi) fuel pressure regulator.

FYI...continue MAF argument

there ya go getting all technical and shit.

[Cobraman]

Dammmnnn....Can you read? what does ^^^ this answer ^^^ have to do with your original post? For the past few months you keep asking how to do this Vortech, how to do that with a Vortech, whats the best way to do this with a Vortech.

Guess what, its all been answered a thousand times for you. Now you want to run it without a tune? Please do that so I can read your next post about how you blew it up..

It has everything to do with my first post. You commented on somebody's ( who obviously didnt read either) to get a 255 pump, inline, and tune and said " I've told him that he needs a 255, an inline, and tune and he is ignoring the right way to do it" when clearly stated in my first post I said that all of those things I either have/will be done an have stated that multiple times. Why get 60lb injectors? My 39'rs are good to 450rw and I only plan to make 400. Why go spend $400 on 60lb injectors when I can spend $100 for 39#'rs that will work perfectly. The only reason I am talking of not getting it tuned YET ( making sure that's big enough to read) is because I might get an intercooler a month from now and I would rather not spend $150 or so to get it retuned. I would rather not have to wait a month to get this thing going, but (thanks to the people actually helping with the question) I realize that I'll be paying for a retune. And as Brooks would put it: my sack- lick it.

[shumpertdavid]

Cobraman, 2 options you have are to wait, gather all your parts, assemble and go for 1 full round of tuning with blower, intercooler, etc. Or get the car put together and tuned with no intercooler then go back in and install it and retune.

When I put the novi 1000 on my black 97, I ran everthing stock (except for 255lph intank and spark plugs) with the fmu. It only made 8 psi, I ran premium and never had any problems.

I swapped the pulley, went to a lightning mass, and 60's, ditched the fmu and had to do tuning.

There is no was I would recommend putting your setup together and risking driving it without a tune, other than maybe on the trailer or something. For sure wouldn't let it see ANY boost. Only takes a little detonation and lean condition to cause a big $ problem. I can get you pics of pistons to prove this and receipts from the machine shop.