Another shooting. NY

[03trubluGT]

cops shot people? No fucking way!!! They are highly trained professionals. There is no possible way that innocent bystanders got shot by cops. I can only imagine if this happened in a dark movie theater filled with smoke and a bunch of Call of Duty motherfuckers waving their handguns around trying to shoot a lunatic with a semi-automatic rifle.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

The difference is some idiot with a movie screen as a backdrop and an idiot in public with mass citizens as a backdrop.

[Forever_frost]

Only 3 were injured by direct gunfire, by the looks of it. The other 6 were injured by "fragments". I guess in the Army they teach you how to determine the manner your rounds will strike, and if there will be any shrapnel, and where that shrapnel will end up

Let's take a look at the most important numbers. Fatalaties:

Jeffery Johnson - 1
NYPD - ZERO!



Reckless?
Let us see you engage a single soft target at 15 yards or less with a backdrop of a very populated street. Oh yea, and let that target have a gun and start engaging you at the same time.

I guess you're thinking this is straight out of a highly scripted movie where no one misses?



Oh noes! I tried to make a funny and Stevo called me on it!
What ever am I going to do?????

Get off your high horse, or start calling EVERYONE on it. Nice way to single me out there buddy.

ACtually here's the numbers:

Shooter shoots: 1 person.
Cops shoot: 3 people

Shooter injures: 0 people
Cops injure: 6 people.

And yes, we are taught to check our backgrounds when we pull the trigger. Or do you think we open fire on insurgents who are standing in front of citizens? No, we take cover and wait for them to move. Have you forgotten your Marine training so much? You don't open fire where non combatants can be harmed. And when you have a higher hit count on citizens than the threat does, something is bad wrong.

So you have a problem with requiring cops who carry those weapons and who hit more citizens than the shooter did, having their weapons confiscated until they can prove 90% proficiency with their weapons under a live fire condition? We did it all the time. It was called MOUNT training. And we used simunitions.

[Forever_frost]

Yeah I am going to agree with Matt on this one. I am sure he was standing still also? I have not read the article orrrrrr seen the video but I can only imagine.

We do run and gun drills and active shooter stuff all the time and it will for sure screw with your accuracy a tad bit. The real deal is even that much more adrenaline involved. I wish we could do active shooter training twice a year and maybee that would take the edge off of it some for the new guys if they so happen to end up in a gun fight but who knows. Standing there shooting at a target is great and all but when the target starts shooting back your body does strange things.

Then allow me to summarize:

Shooter shoots coworker and leaves. Construction worker follows him and reports it to cops. Cops show up and he turns with a pistol. Cops open fire and kill shooter but also actively injure by direct fire 3 and indirectly 6 more.

[Nash B.]

Let's take a look at the most important numbers. Fatalaties:

Jeffery Johnson - 1
NYPD - ZERO!

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the police did account for one fatality.

[Forever_frost]

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the police did account for one fatality.

Also a point. So running stats:

Shooter: 1 fatality, zero injuries.

Cops: 1 fatality, 9 injuries.

Now, who was more dangerous in this situation?

[no4njnk]

Have you not watched the link? The guy was a sitting target and the cops looked like they had no training. Ran up on the guy, pulled out their guns, got hot feet and started moving around, and then they shot 17 rounds or whatever at random. These guys freaked out and did everything opposite their training tells them to do. Do I call what they did reckless? Your damn right I do. If someone with a CHL did what they did they would be in jail for 5 years.

You cannot tell from the video how far but looks to be about 10 yards with a stationary target. When I heard they hit innocent civilians I thought they got tunnel vision but after looking at the video they flat out missed their target.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1143522

[03trubluGT]

ACtually here's the numbers:

Shooter shoots: 1 person.
Cops shoot: 3 people

Shooter injures: 0 people
Cops injure: 6 people.

And yes, we are taught to check our backgrounds when we pull the trigger. Or do you think we open fire on insurgents who are standing in front of citizens? No, we take cover and wait for them to move. Have you forgotten your Marine training so much? You don't open fire where non combatants can be harmed. And when you have a higher hit count on citizens than the threat does, something is bad wrong.

So you have a problem with requiring cops who carry those weapons and who hit more citizens than the shooter did, having their weapons confiscated until they can prove 90% proficiency with their weapons under a live fire condition? We did it all the time. It was called MOUNT training. And we used simunitions.

First of all your numbers are wrong. Johnson did kill someone that day by gunfire.

Second, I have seen no reports that he even got off a shot at the police, and no one will ever know if he intended to. It might have been his plan to commit "suicide by cop". I'm not sure if your crystal ball can see that either.

I have a problem with your analysis of the situation when you have no experience with law enforcement. You hold everyone to your military standard and training and lack the ability to see the constraints law enforcement works with.

You don't realize that we train with simunitions also (paint markers) that feed into specially modified Glock slides. We also have a video simulator called "The Judge" where your shots are marked and timed.

One can NEVER prepare for the real thing, only train in simulated environments.

I guess that if you were the cops in that situation, that you would have let the guy open fire on you because you would have refused to pull the trigger since it was a crowded street.

[03trubluGT]

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the police did account for one fatality.

Where is that documented? The reports I saw that day said the 3 that were hit were all non life threatening...

[03trubluGT]

Have you not watched the link? The guy was a sitting target and the cops looked like they had no training. Ran up on the guy, pulled out their guns, got hot feet and started moving around, and then they shot 17 rounds or whatever at random. These guys freaked out and did everything opposite their training tells them to do. Do I call what they did reckless? Your damn right I do. If someone with a CHL did what they did they would be in jail for 5 years.

You cannot tell from the video how far but looks to be about 10 yards with a stationary target. When I heard they hit innocent civilians I thought they got tunnel vision but after looking at the video they flat out missed their target.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1143522

Yea, I watched it.

Could it have been done better?

Could you have done it better? If so, where were you that day? I suggest you put your big girl panties on and go fill out an application to one of the hundreds of departments across the country that are hiring.

[Forever_frost]

But he didn't injure anyone. He got a fatality, so did cops. He got zero injuries, cops got 9. Spin it as you like Matt, those are the numbers.

As far as holding cops to military standards, here's my rebuttal:

Police are a paramilitary organization, obsessed with getting military gear, such as APC's, automatic weapons and body armor. YOU are the one who mentioned MY training and assumed that we are trained to open fire when there are civilians around and a high probability of hitting someone.

If I was a cop in that situation, You order him to drop the weapon. If he does point it at you, you make sure your rounds find their targets. You do not dump over a dozen rounds in the general direction of someone and get 9 injuries from innocents. Absolutely not. You're paid to put your life on the line. You put civilian life over your own. If that means you take one in the vest so that those 9 get to go home without your slugs ripping through them, so be it. You have a vest, they don't.


And I have refused to pull the trigger due to crowds. That's.....yeah, that's how I was shot. I had no clear targets without collateral damage so I did not engage, despite being out in the open, wearing a green vest in a green truck in the city of Sadr City. Do you want to have this argument Matt? With me? REally?

[Forever_frost]

Yea, I watched it.

Could it have been done better?

Could you have done it better? If so, where were you that day? I suggest you put your big girl panties on and go fill out an application to one of the hundreds of departments across the country that are hiring.

Are you saying that police have no obligation to make sure the rounds go where they belong? I hope they sue the city for negligence. You do NOT shoot innocents because you can't control your adrenaline.

And is your argument really: Could you have done it better and if so, why didn't you handle it? Those cops were trained and paid for situations like that. No one here was. Their negligence and trigger happy reactions are what caused the injuries. You just can't find it in yourself to say "They fucked up. They injured more people than the shooter and should be held to account" can you?

[03trubluGT]

But he didn't injure anyone. He got a fatality, so did cops. He got zero injuries, cops got 9. Spin it as you like Matt, those are the numbers.

As far as holding cops to military standards, here's my rebuttal:

Police are a paramilitary organization, obsessed with getting military gear, such as APC's, automatic weapons and body armor. YOU are the one who mentioned MY training and assumed that we are trained to open fire when there are civilians around and a high probability of hitting someone.

If I was a cop in that situation, You order him to drop the weapon. If he does point it at you, you make sure your rounds find their targets. You do not dump over a dozen rounds in the general direction of someone and get 9 injuries from innocents. Absolutely not. You're paid to put your life on the line. You put civilian life over your own. If that means you take one in the vest so that those 9 get to go home without your slugs ripping through them, so be it. You have a vest, they don't.


And I have refused to pull the trigger due to crowds. That's.....yeah, that's how I was shot. I had no clear targets without collateral damage so I did not engage, despite being out in the open, wearing a green vest in a green truck in the city of Sadr City. Do you want to have this argument Matt? With me? REally?

I fully agree that in a perfect situation, that the police would have neutralized the target without any collateral damage, but shit happens. We both know it. I'm not glad that someone else was injured, but there's nothing you or I can do about it now. There are policies in place for when things like this happen, so let it work out. Bitching about it is going to do absolutely ZERO.

Are you saying that police have no obligation to make sure the rounds go where they belong? I hope they sue the city for negligence. You do NOT shoot innocents because you can't control your adrenaline.

And is your argument really: Could you have done it better and if so, why didn't you handle it? Those cops were trained and paid for situations like that. No one here was. Their negligence and trigger happy reactions are what caused the injuries. You just can't find it in yourself to say "They fucked up. They injured more people than the shooter and should be held to account" can you?

Can you do anything but put words into my mouth and take things out of context? Really???

[Nash B.]

Where is that documented? The reports I saw that day said the 3 that were hit were all non life threatening...

The cops killed the bad guy.

[Forever_frost]

I fully agree that in a perfect situation, that the police would have neutralized the target without any collateral damage, but shit happens. We both know it. I'm not glad that someone else was injured, but there's nothing you or I can do about it now. There are policies in place for when things like this happen, so let it work out. Bitching about it is going to do absolutely ZERO.




Can you do anything but put words into my mouth and take things out of context? Really???

Neither will defending cops who shot innocent bystanders. Don't give me the perfect situation crap. Jason, I believe, said that cops train with simunitions and other simulations for situations just like that. These idiots couldn't wait to engage and couldn't wait to dump entire magazines into the offender and that means 9 people injured. You call innocents getting shot by cops "shit happens?"

Damn I'm glad I'm not up in your neck of the woods with your officers 'protecting' me. I'd hate for them to respond to a hold up at 7-11 and start opening fire from the parking lot and injuring and killing everyone in the store.


And if I'm putting words into your mouth and taking things out of context, then say the cops fucked up and should be held accountable. That simple. You wouldn't catch near the hell and there wouldn't be nearly as many FTP threads if cops weren't saying "Well, of course innocents got shot by cops, these things happen." Or "the cop shot up the family pet in the pet's home but, hey, he probably had a dog phobia, these things happen." Say the cops were wrong and should be held accountable and move on. Damn, at least I admit when military fucks up.

[Forever_frost]

Have you not watched the link? The guy was a sitting target and the cops looked like they had no training. Ran up on the guy, pulled out their guns, got hot feet and started moving around, and then they shot 17 rounds or whatever at random. These guys freaked out and did everything opposite their training tells them to do. Do I call what they did reckless? Your damn right I do. If someone with a CHL did what they did they would be in jail for 5 years.

You cannot tell from the video how far but looks to be about 10 yards with a stationary target. When I heard they hit innocent civilians I thought they got tunnel vision but after looking at the video they flat out missed their target.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1143522

From the video, it was almost point blank range and teh guy was standing still. So this wasn't a hard shoot, it was a guy in one place at about 10 feet. Hell, they could have thrown their weapons at him and hit him. Hey Matt, any comment? Did you watch the video?