Church shooting - White Settlement

[John -- '02 HAWK]

This is an alternate universe for sure.

Apparently you havent seen the UPS vs Church Hero meme...it brings up a good point.

ups vs church was a different situation. It also highlighted that the miami cops didnt get enough training on how to control their adrenaline, and it highlighted they had horrible command, control, and communication.

I'm also not saying do nothing and wait for the cops. Just that the cops would have changed his focus from a civilian to the LEO. And while the donut eater might not be able shoot like the church hero it might have saved the other 2.

[GeorgeG.]

Sucks for the person who lost their life besides the shooter.

It does. As much as he wanted to protect the congregation, I hope this serves as a lesson that people need to think before drawing their gun. The bad guy already had his gun drawn on that guy so to me, the good guy that got shot was out of the game. Trying to reach for his gun, and taking for ever on top of it, got him killed. Had he threw his hands up the shooter might have skipped him and might have given him a chance to live.

[4bangen]

It does. As much as he wanted to protect the congregation, I hope this serves as a lesson that people need to think before drawing their gun. The bad guy already had his gun drawn on that guy so to me, the good guy that got shot was out of the game. Trying to reach for his gun, and taking for ever on top of it, got him killed. Had he threw his hands up the shooter might have skipped him and might have given him a chance to live.

That damn hindsight.
I do think this footage is going to be a strong tool for teaching gun owners when to and when not to draw. Also if we all learn one thing from this, it practice practice practice! to to the range and shoot a lot, but don't forget to get reps in on drawing from your carry position. over and over and over.

[SS Junk]

He should have unholstered his weapon and kept it concealed then sat behind or on the side of the perp so he could be shadowed. The guy with the better shot should have moved over so he had less civilians in the engagement zone

Do you regularly train for this kind of thing? Especially under duress?

[Gasser64]

Apparently you havent seen the UPS vs Church Hero meme...it brings up a good point.

Post it up... there seems to be too many variations of that to know which one you're talking about, exactly

[CyaNide]

I think it's nice that CNN hires retarded kids.

They probably get a tax break for it.

CN

[Labora]

That damn hindsight.
I do think this footage is going to be a strong tool for teaching gun owners when to and when not to draw. Also if we all learn one thing from this, it practice practice practice! to to the range and shoot a lot, but don't forget to get reps in on drawing from your carry position. over and over and over.

It does. As much as he wanted to protect the congregation, I hope this serves as a lesson that people need to think before drawing their gun. The bad guy already had his gun drawn on that guy so to me, the good guy that got shot was out of the game. Trying to reach for his gun, and taking for ever on top of it, got him killed. Had he threw his hands up the shooter might have skipped him and might have given him a chance to live.

I watch the Active Self Protection channel on youtube, and he always says you have to "wait your turn". Can't draw with a gun pointed on you, but it is easy to say that in hindsight.

[ceyko]

all i'll say is if some douchebag comes in our church wearing a long coat he'll have half a dozen guns on him the whole time . sucks that lives were lost but 6 sec and done aint bad . i think he was targeting the other guy from river oaks .

Yeah - if your church is like around here - yeah, there are 2-5 folks "charged" with handling security, but there are certainly a lot more decent shooters with a gun in the church.

[S_K]

It does. As much as he wanted to protect the congregation, I hope this serves as a lesson that people need to think before drawing their gun. The bad guy already had his gun drawn on that guy so to me, the good guy that got shot was out of the game. Trying to reach for his gun, and taking for ever on top of it, got him killed. Had he threw his hands up the shooter might have skipped him and might have given him a chance to live.

No - He stood up and made himself a target AND THEN decided to draw his gun. That's what got him killed. The bad guy was focused on the usher. Get your gun out and shoot him from the comfort of your pew. No need to stand, there is no firing line in real life.

[Gasser64]

correct action would be to get the perp away from the congregation. use misdirection 'my wallets in the break room lets go get it' 'Theres coffee and donuts in the break room you hungry'

Since he was wearing a fake beard, a wig, sunglasses and long jacket and acting erratically. They should have called the cops, since the police have body armor(hind sight) and the training/exposure to such weird situations.

I dunno, that guy doesn't seem like he was going to just follow you away somewhere.

Then again, was he really there to just start massacring the churchies? Or was he there to rob someone, and then he realized someone was else was pulling a gun so he started shooting?

[LS1Goat]

Then again, was he really there to just start massacring the churchies? Or was he there to rob someone, and then he realized someone was else was pulling a gun so he started shooting?

I glance over a lot of your post. However, this one intrigued me. A guy in cheap disguise and wearing a cloak enters the church and starts acting odd. A person who happens to be a mentally ill religious fanatic and you postulate he might be there because he wants to rob a parishioner in front of a 100 witnesses? Then things just went wrong and he started shooting? See the church has helped him in the past with food, but then he started asking for money. He would get irate when they would offer him help in the form of food instead of cash. He made repeated attempts to exact cash from the church. Keep in mind his prior arrests on weapons charges. To summarize; he wasn't there for someone's wallet or purse. It was likely going to be a Sutherland Springs 2.0 until Mr. Wilson ended the threat. I think Kinnunen was done asking for money at that point and had a different plan in mind.

"Kinnunen then moved to Oklahoma and reconnected with his first wife, Cindy Glasgow-Voegel. She filed for a protective order in January 2012 in Grady County, Oklahoma.

In a statement, she wrote, "Keith is a violent, paranoid person with a long line of assault and batteries with and without firearms. He is a religious fanatic, says he's battling a demon ... He is not nice to anyone."

[Grimpala]

I glance over a lot of your post. However, this one intrigued me. A guy in cheap disguise and wearing a cloak enters the church and starts acting odd. A person who happens to be a mentally ill religious fanatic and you postulate he might be there because he wants to rob a parishioner in front of a 100 witnesses? Then things just went wrong and he started shooting? See the church has helped him in the past with food, but then he started asking for money. He would get irate when they would offer him help in the form of food instead of cash. He made repeated attempts to exact cash from the church. Keep in mind his prior arrests on weapons charges. To summarize; he wasn't there for someone's wallet or purse. It was likely going to be a Sutherland Springs 2.0 until Mr. Wilson ended the threat. I think Kinnunen was done asking for money at that point and had a different plan in mind.

"Kinnunen then moved to Oklahoma and reconnected with his first wife, Cindy Glasgow-Voegel. She filed for a protective order in January 2012 in Grady County, Oklahoma.

In a statement, she wrote, "Keith is a violent, paranoid person with a long line of assault and batteries with and without firearms. He is a religious fanatic, says he's battling a demon ... He is not nice to anyone."

Wonder if he's gotten to meet his demon face to face yet.

[LS1Goat]

Well deserved.

.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

Do you regularly train for this kind of thing? Especially under duress?

I've been out of the country or I would have answered earlier

I practice drawing from different holsters and know what holsters/positions hamper that pull. Sometimes I'll time myself but mostly I want the muscle memory with a smooth motion

When I go into places I'll scan for the exits, I look for where the attack could come from. I also try to be observant of my surroundings.

Do I practice running to a location, drawing, and firing? no, but that's because I haven't found a place in N Dallas that allows that activity and is open to the public.

[Avery'sDad]

Sutherland Springs 2.0

I must have been living under a rock. I never even heard anything about Sutherland Springs shooting. Of course I dont watch the news. Come to think of it, I wouldnt know about this incident if not for this site.