collision bros!

[Ruffdaddy]

First...in this case its not just strength that matters. But let's touch on strength from an engineering perspective and similar ratings.

Strength would most commonly be discussed in terms of tensile (ultimate and yield), shear and for non "even" materials...compressive. As I've already said. A weak steel has a yield strength of 33KSI, while a strong adhesive is only 5KSI. And that doesnt take into account that this strength is directionally dependent. The ultimate strength of steel is going to be at least 10 times greater than the epoxy.

Now just as important (if not more so) is the other properties that are massively different. Elongation, fracture toughness, impact strength...etc. now remembered crash structures are designed to deform in a very specific way. The yield strength determines when that deformation starts...but elongation and toughness play the bigger role in defining how "far it can stretch" and how much energy it can absorb without catastrophic failure. Adhesives don't even come close to metals in that category.

[Scott Mc]

most door skins are fold over and glued on the outside perimeter and then spot welded along the belt line to the door shell, much like a roof skin(with the exception of folding over). there is nothing connecting either skin near the center to create more rigid unitized structure. instead of a cap, think them more like a flimsy lid on tupperware. all they do is cover something, and absorb very little energy in a collision.

in addition, the door shell holds the intrusion beam. the beam is most definitely considered primary structure in a collision, and the skin is glued("tied") to it. without the beam a unitized vehicle would fold up like a suitcase in a hard front or rear collision. that is why i brought it up.

and now i see you said you are an engineer. make sure you bring that up first if or when you drop your vehicle off at a collision center.

This guy knows something about cars in reality.

This whole wall of text deserves deflection of the year award. Running away from The fact that the roof is structural and you are flat wrong.

When I say primary structure...i mean the actual body structure:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.repairerdrivennews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2016-honda-fit-body-information.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi-0qC71q7VAhXLqlQKHaDoB78QFgisATAa&usg=AFQjCNFyh_5I26ffiNkitMvlFobGvIjHRg

The design of a roof isn't anything like that of a door so again...why are you even bringing it up in this thread? It's just a deflection. You are running away from your pile of shit and covering it with febreeze.

I sure hope that when you repair someone's car you make sure to tell them that you think you know better than the OEM engineers and are going to take the easy way out. I hope you also notify insurance of this as well as any licensing/certification commitees.

It is surprising and sad to see multiple people admit to ignoring OEM requirements for safe repair and actually justifying it. And going a step further to post about it on a public forum. Let that sink in...

Dunning and Kruger have an excellent study on why you genuinely think you know better. You can't possibly know what you don't know. So a bunch of repair techs that want to take the easy way out way over estimate their ability to understand structural engineering.

your link has the fucking 3m part number in it that Honda approves for repairs. Now that I know your profession I fully expect a reply that I will not care about.

You can not make a blanket statement saying that the roof skin is not part of a cars structure. Every design is different but engineers rarely pass on an opportunity to add structural rigidity and a skin installed as a stressed panel adds buckets of strength. The windshield is a stressed member in many designs.

Carfax is a bunch of lying mothers fuckers. You will never get any disagreement from me over that.



I have no doubt that they are just looking for a payday to help with expenses related to their injuries. You are correct that gluing a panel makes for a strong joint but there is no way on earth I would pass on welding if the manufacture says that something must be welded. I prefer both gluing and welding if it is an option. Mazda made several sportsman versions of the second gen RX-7s that were glued at every seam and had extra and over sized spot welds. The difference in structural strength was very noticeable even though 2nd gen RX-7s were very stiff cars to begin with.



A very thin panel can add a lot of strength to a structure if the structure was designed with that panel being a stressed panel. Jumbo jets are made this way.

I stated skin, not assembly. I like you, go talk in another topic about the real history of the world or some shit


I am going to he honest, not sure if I am more mad I replied or that I didn't proof and edit.

[svauto-erotic855]

your link has the fucking 3m part number in it that Honda approves for repairs. Now that I know your profession I fully expect a reply that I will not care about.

The panel bonding stuff in the link is only mentioned as being used on the rear wheel arch flange. It does mention a separate set of instructions for removing and replacing the roof.

From what I can see from the link with a somewhat detailed picture of the cars structure I can confidently say that the roof skin is a stressed panel that adds significantly to the rigidity of the open span of the roof if a lateral sheering type load is applied to it.

Edit: Based on the directions posted below concerning the roof skin attachment it is EXTREMELY clear that the repair techs fucked up and fucked up badly. The roof skin is not just a skin in this case.

[Ruffdaddy]

This guy knows something about cars in reality.

your link has the fucking 3m part number in it that Honda approves for repairs. Now that I know your profession I fully expect a reply that I will not care about.



I stated skin, not assembly. I like you, go talk in another topic about the real history of the world or some shit


I am going to he honest, not sure if I am more mad I replied or that I didn't proof and edit.

Hahaha man stop digging your hole deeper. You only proved that you have no ability to read and comprehend technical documentation .drunk posting isn't an excuse. "ZOMG adhesive is listed!!11!! That must mean it's the sole roof panel bond and it proves the roof panel is non structural."

Educate yourself son...heres some of the actual evidence. Notice the strange presence of welds all over the damn thing?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.vehiclesafetyfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/John-Eagle-Collision-Center-Defective-Repair-Lawsuit-Honda-Fit-Body-Repair-Manual-Plaintiffs-Exhibit-202.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjelOXzmLHVAhUEyoMKHQD9DxI4FBAWCEMwBA&usg=AFQjCNGs2mg2BSUMYZFCmT9RnmqS_NlIzA

[The King]

Now this thread is cookin', dipshit above is desperately Googling.

[svauto-erotic855]

Now this thread is cookin', dipshit above is desperately Googling.

I would not call finding the actual directions from the manufacture for correctly repairing their product when the topic being discussed is a poorly performed repair as "desperately Googling".

What do the people who designed and built the car know anyway? They should STFU and just find a guy who has worked as a body man his whole life to write their repair procedures since engineers know nothing about their own products/designs.

[The King]

I would not call finding the actual directions from the manufacture for correctly repairing their product when the topic being discussed is a poorly performed repair as "desperately Googling".

What do the people who designed and built the car know anyway? They should STFU and just find a guy who has worked as a body man his whole life to write their repair procedures since engineers know nothing about their own products/designs.

Thankfully I don't have any need currently to show Honda prowess with respect to the engineering of their vehicles. That being said, I owned up until recently a Honda Fit (the original topic of this thread) that was subjected to a relatively low-speed collision and it did not fare very well. Googling their recommended repair procedures wouldn't have mattered for squat.

[Rick Modena]

What, the, fuck is going on up in this bitch?!

[svauto-erotic855]

Thankfully I don't have any need currently to show Honda prowess with respect to the engineering of their vehicles. That being said, I owned up until recently a Honda Fit (the original topic of this thread) that was subjected to a relatively low-speed collision and it did not fare very well. Googling their recommended repair procedures wouldn't have mattered for squat.

Now imagine how bad your car and your would have been fucked up in a crash if someone had performed a repair on it improperly that compromised it's already questionable structural strength.

What, the, fuck is going on up in this bitch?!

Just trying to keep things interesting since this board is dying off.

[The King]

Now imagine how bad your car and your would have been fucked up in a crash if someone had performed a repair on it improperly that compromised it's already questionable structural strength.

Structurally it didn't fare too badly, with the exception of the radiator support. The front sheet metal components (never previously repaired) in front of the firewall however did not fare well at all. The vehicle still maintained alignment and would run normally mechanically. In fact it was driven without incident from GP to far south Arlington/Mansfield to a repair shop afterward, where the estimate must have exceeded what the other party's insurance wanted to pay. Always a shame to lose a paid-off car, and personally I would have preferred to have had the car repaired.

[AnthonyS]

Structurally it didn't fare too badly, with the exception of the radiator support. The front sheet metal components (never previously repaired) in front of the firewall however did not fare well at all. The vehicle still maintained alignment and would run normally mechanically. In fact it was driven without incident from GP to far south Arlington/Mansfield to a repair shop afterward, where the estimate must have exceeded what the other party's insurance wanted to pay. Always a shame to lose a paid-off car, and personally I would have preferred to have had the car repaired.

This is about lawyers and a payday. It has nothing to do with finite element analysis or structural integrity or even previous repairs. It's about an idiot driver that slammed into something in front of him at a high speed differential, causing a fire, that now wants to be paid so they won't have to work. Unfortunately, our legal system encourages this type of fraud.

[svauto-erotic855]

This is about lawyers and a payday. It has nothing to do with finite element analysis or structural integrity or even previous repairs. It's about an idiot driver that slammed into something in front of him at a high speed differential, causing a fire, that now wants to be paid so they won't have to work. Unfortunately, our legal system encourages this type of fraud.

Every word you wrote is dead on the money. The only problem is that the repair shop did not follow published repair instructions and left themselves wide open to being the victim of a "Cash Justice" predator. If they had followed directions this would have been just another crash with not a chance in hell of having someone else to blame for it.

Part of my liability insurance was taking a class on how to not get blamed for something happening. If I arrive at a house and there is a padlock on the gate that is unlocked I am the party at fault if I leave the gate unlocked when I leave and a kid gets into the yard and drowns. Covering your ass from a lawsuit is easy to do if you follow industry guidelines.

[Baron Von Crowder]

I wish I had time to go take pictures of the panel bond that is still holding the metal to the structure, but the steel itself tore off of it.

[Rick Modena]

I was going to go and read all the bullshit after post #20, but then I saw the players and I knew where it went...

[svauto-erotic855]

I wish I had time to go take pictures of the panel bond that is still holding the metal to the structure, but the steel itself tore off of it.

It will not make one bit of difference. Thinking like this is what keep PI lawyers in business.