Shots fired at downtown Dallas protest

[Broncojohnny]

Cowards aren't the only ones who hide. Would you prefer I used the term "Sought cover?" He hid behind a pillar instead of advancing because...he was a cop not a soldier. He was there to serve not to fight a war. He wasn't trained to engage a hostile force that would go toe to toe with him.

Be sure to give Paladin a trigger warning before using FTP terminology!

[Forever_frost]

To be fair is 2 days of combat more experience than 29 years as an officer who has seen lots of stuff too? I think frost means well most of the time but let's not overlook that his one time seeing combat didn't end well for him when he starts spouting off most of his rubbish.

4 days of actual experience and 3 years of day in and day out of training on the topic. Not "let's subdue and read rights." Not "traffic stops", not anything but close with the enemy and kill them. I didn't have a lot of other things to worry about. When it comes to this, outside of other infantrymen or special forces, I'm pretty damned good and since I've been out, I really haven't let my skills atrophy or stopped learning how to be better at what I did.

If you put a cop against an infantryman, the cop will lose 9 times out of 10. Why? Training, tactics and drive. The cop wants to go home, the solider has been trained to the point he's not thinking about it. Hell, a lot of laws are because "police want to go home at night." We're told before deployment there's good chances we won't come back. Again, police aren't put through the level of brainwashing we are. I'm being as blunt as I can be. Police are civilians. We're not. Police go home at the end of the day, we don't. Police are taught laws and traffic regulations and aren't expected to actually engage in gunfights and hand to hand combat. We're not only taught it, we're taught to crave it.

Hell, we even have badges for those who do it. Combat infantry badges. If you're infantry and don't have one, you're a child and you look up to those with them. You're unproven.

Again, I was 100% with the cops right up until the unconstitutional act of sending in a drone with explosives. Cops aren't soldiers or warriors nor should they be.

[kingjason]

Trust your body armor and advance. He could have stopped it right there but cops aren't soldiers despite their love of the rank structure and weapons.

Did you say trust your body armor vs a rifle round?

Also, while we are trained to run in and stop the threat, it is not necessarily by your self unless that is the only option. The rule we have used is generally go in a team and stop the threat. IE your shift mates. So teams of three are preferred but two will do. We just don't wait on swat anymore like in the old days.

Also, and the last thing I will say on this is, no matter how bad ass you are, or well trained, there is the chance some random dumb shit will get you. Officer Shaw, who was a switched on, swat, six foot eight, bad mother fucker, took a absolutely random shot to the head from through a light bar. The guy fucking through the AK behind him and was just randomly shooting rounds out of the back quarter of the car.

I know you don't hate the cops, but sometimes you don't get why we do what we do. That guy was still a active threat, and was eliminated. Had he just been hold up, not screaming about more killing, and IED's, he may have had his day in court. The choice was his, from the beginning. Personally, I think the guy just had a mental issue and picked a cause to justify it.

[jewozzy]

4 days of actual experience and 3 years of day in and day out of training on the topic. Not "let's subdue and read rights." Not "traffic stops", not anything but close with the enemy and kill them. I didn't have a lot of other things to worry about. When it comes to this, outside of other infantrymen or special forces, I'm pretty damned good and since I've been out, I really haven't let my skills atrophy or stopped learning how to be better at what I did.

If you put a cop against an infantryman, the cop will lose 9 times out of 10. Why? Training, tactics and drive. The cop wants to go home, the solider has been trained to the point he's not thinking about it. Again, police aren't put through the level of brainwashing we are. I'm being as blunt as I can be. Police are civilians. We're not. Police go home at the end of the day, we don't. Police are taught laws and traffic regulations and aren't expected to actually engage in gunfights and hand to hand combat. We're not only taught it, we're taught to crave it.

Hell, we even have badges for those who do it. Combat infantry badges. If you're infantry and don't have one, you're a child and you look up to those with them. You're unproven.

Again, I was 100% with the cops right up until the unconstitutional act of sending in a drone with explosives. Cops aren't soldiers or warriors nor should they be.

The point of my smart ass remark is that you, in my opinion are not an expert on the matter. Like I said in a previous post the penal code nor the constitution say you can't blow someone up with a bomb if deadly force is legal. In your own post you the constitution said something to the effect of "law of the land". If there is immanent threat of serious bodily injury them deadly force is authorized. They attempted to go in to engage him and were shot. No point in risking further injury.

[Forever_frost]

Did you say trust your body armor vs a rifle round?

Also, while we are trained to run in and stop the threat, it is not necessarily by your self unless that is the only option. The rule we have used is generally go in a team and stop the threat. IE your shift mates. So teams of three are preferred but two will do. We just don't wait on swat anymore like in the old days.

Also, and the last thing I will say on this is, no matter how bad ass you are, or well trained, there is the chance some random dumb shit will get you. Officer Shaw, who was a switched on, swat, six foot eight, bad mother fucker, took a absolutely random shot to the head from through a light bar. The guy fucking through the AK behind him and was just randomly shooting rounds out of the back quarter of the car.

I know you don't hate the cops, but sometimes you don't get why we do what we do. That guy was still a active threat, and was eliminated. Had he just been hold up, not screaming about more killing, and IED's, he may have had his day in court. The choice was his, from the beginning. Personally, I think the guy just had a mental issue and picked a cause to justify it.

Yep, mine stopped a few rounds. Destroyed a pair of NVG's but stopped rounds. You mean yours won't?

Of course there's the chance someone will punch your ticket. There's always that chance. That's the risk of living. The guy was an active threat but the police department's actions were unconstitutional on a federal and state level. Police are not executioners. You want to deal with the image of police brutality by what? Not going in with big bad, armored and armed SWAT but rather sending in a drone with C4 and then taking pictures of it? Holy fuck. Not only is that a constitutional fuck up, that's an imaging fuck up. The chief needs charged, the officer who drove the drone needs charged.

Screaming about more killing is irrelevant. Screaming about IED's? So the answer is to kill him? The guy who says he planted explosives and knows where they are, you blow him up risking all of Dallas....really? And if he had a vest of explosives....you set them off and level an entire building because someone had to get their explosives on.

[Forever_frost]

The point of my smart ass remark is that you, in my opinion are not an expert on the matter. Like I said in a previous post the penal code nor the constitution say you can't blow someone up with a bomb if deadly force is legal. In your own post you the constitution said something to the effect of "law of the land". If there is immanent threat of serious bodily injury them deadly force is authorized. They attempted to go in to engage him and were shot. No point in risking further injury.

Where is the line? So we no longer send police officers in if they think the suspect is armed and we send in Predator drones with Hellfires? Where is the line and are police now executioners deciding when due process applies and not?

[jewozzy]

Where is the line? So we no longer send police officers in if they think the suspect is armed and we send in Predator drones with Hellfires? Where is the line and are police now executioners deciding when due process applies and not?

The line has already been established by law and challenged. Threat of serious bodily injury end of story. Like I said before deadly force is deadly force. Whether you strap c4 to Johnny 5 or you tickle them to death it's still legal. There's no law that says it can only be frosts way of mono y mono because by God that's how it was when he fought over seas. Tactics like that are the reason we've lost a lot of people when it's not needed both in military and in law enforcement.

[Strychnine]

You guys realize both sides have valid points, right? You realize that just saying, "Man, I understand... I hear what you're saying and I don't have the 100% perfect answer" is ok, right? You're not conceding any part of yourself by being empathetic and understanding where others are coming from.

Frost is right - those cops were very likely not trained the same way as infantrymen are trained. They were not 'brainwashed' to sacrifice themselves at any given moment and run into a hail of gunfire.

The other guys are right when they say that officer was brave as hell. He was in there... one on one against a fuckhead with a rifle in downtown Dallas. He wanted to win that fight and there's no doubt he did his best with what he had and knew.

With more training could he have done better? Maybe. With prior military experience would he have made a different decisions? Maybe. Who knows.


You're all arguing for no fucking reason.


Are you for peaceful society, the rule of law, and the preservation of our country, or are you against all of that?

Police officers died. Citizens of their city, state, and country, felt so wronged and marginalized that they killed their own civil servants to make a statement. Why can't we be honest and look inside for minute and figure out why? Why does everyone have to blame someone, rather than say, "Shit, this sucks. Maybe we've all played a part in getting our society to this point." We take the easy way out and say, "Fuck that guy over there."

There's a new book out called Tribe by Sebastian Junger. He's the guy that did Retrepo, and then Korengal. His research and insight into humanity's history, civilization, why we're so fragmented now, etc is VERY insightful and very well documented. There's even good info on the history of lone wolf type attacks like this, how veterans coming home from war can be helped back into society, how both of those have a common root, etc.


Anyone who reads this thread and has a "me vs them" attitude needs to take a deep breath and check their ego. Society can't succeed unless ALL of us are together. You don't have to be republican or democrat or support globalism over nationalism, but if you blame anything on "everyone else" or "that other group" and put yourself on a pedestal then you have no right to talk.

Keep it up guys. Everyone is just one comment away from convincing everyone else that they're right!

This is exactly the problem. Everyone wants to change someone else's mind. Why not stop and say, "Fuck, this isn't right. Let's talk about a good common ground and then find a way to get there."

Don't be an asshole. Be a better human and start trying to SOLVE a problem rather than spew rhetoric about how we got where we are, or how things will never change unless the "other side" changes first.

[SS Junk]

To be fair is 2 days of combat more experience than 29 years as an officer who has seen lots of stuff too?

Depends on who it is.

[Cum Dumpster]

You guys realize both sides have valid points, right? You realize that just saying, "Man, I understand... I hear what you're saying and I don't have the 100% perfect answer" is ok, right? You're not conceding any part of yourself by being empathetic and understanding where others are coming from.

Frost is right - those cops were very likely not trained the same way as infantrymen are trained. They were not 'brainwashed' to sacrifice themselves at any given moment and run into a hail of gunfire.

The other guys are right when they say that officer was brave as hell. He was in there... one on one against a fuckhead with a rifle in downtown Dallas. He wanted to win that fight and there's no doubt he did his best with what he had and knew.

With more training could he have done better? Maybe. With prior military experience would he have made a different decisions? Maybe. Who knows.


You're all arguing for no fucking reason.


Are you for peaceful society, the rule of law, and the preservation of our country, or are you against all of that?

Police officers died. Citizens of their city, state, and country, felt so wronged and marginalized that they killed their own civil servants to make a statement. Why can't we be honest and look inside for minute and figure out why? Why does everyone have to blame someone, rather than say, "Shit, this sucks. Maybe we've all played a part in getting our society to this point." We take the easy way out and say, "Fuck that guy over there."

There's a new book out called Tribe by Sebastian Junger. He's the guy that did Retrepo, and then Korengal. His research and insight into humanity's history, civilization, why we're so fragmented now, etc is VERY insightful and very well documented. There's even good info on the history of lone wolf type attacks like this, how veterans coming home from war can be helped back into society, how both of those have a common root, etc.


Anyone who reads this thread and has a "me vs them" attitude needs to take a deep breath and check their ego. Society can't succeed unless ALL of us are together. You don't have to be republican or democrat or support globalism over nationalism, but if you blame anything on "everyone else" or "that other group" and put yourself on a pedestal then you have no right to talk.






This is exactly the problem. Everyone wants to change someone else's mind. Why not stop and say, "Fuck, this isn't right. Let's talk about a good common ground and then find a way to get there."

Don't be an asshole. Be a better human and start trying to SOLVE a problem rather than spew rhetoric about how we got where we are, or how things will never change unless the "other side" changes first.

Great post! Message received by me. I made my points and have no desire to continue.

[TX_92_Notch]

You guys realize both sides have valid points, right? ..... things will never change unless the "other side" changes first.

Very well said, sir!!

[Jimbo]

I had watched Sebastian Junger's TED talk, it was excellent. Going to rewatch it now.

[Broncojohnny]

You guys realize both sides have valid points, right? You realize that just saying, "Man, I understand... I hear what you're saying and I don't have the 100% perfect answer" is ok, right? You're not conceding any part of yourself by being empathetic and understanding where others are coming from.

Frost is right - those cops were very likely not trained the same way as infantrymen are trained. They were not 'brainwashed' to sacrifice themselves at any given moment and run into a hail of gunfire.

The other guys are right when they say that officer was brave as hell. He was in there... one on one against a fuckhead with a rifle in downtown Dallas. He wanted to win that fight and there's no doubt he did his best with what he had and knew.

With more training could he have done better? Maybe. With prior military experience would he have made a different decisions? Maybe. Who knows.


You're all arguing for no fucking reason.


Are you for peaceful society, the rule of law, and the preservation of our country, or are you against all of that?

Police officers died. Citizens of their city, state, and country, felt so wronged and marginalized that they killed their own civil servants to make a statement. Why can't we be honest and look inside for minute and figure out why? Why does everyone have to blame someone, rather than say, "Shit, this sucks. Maybe we've all played a part in getting our society to this point." We take the easy way out and say, "Fuck that guy over there."

There's a new book out called Tribe by Sebastian Junger. He's the guy that did Retrepo, and then Korengal. His research and insight into humanity's history, civilization, why we're so fragmented now, etc is VERY insightful and very well documented. There's even good info on the history of lone wolf type attacks like this, how veterans coming home from war can be helped back into society, how both of those have a common root, etc.


Anyone who reads this thread and has a "me vs them" attitude needs to take a deep breath and check their ego. Society can't succeed unless ALL of us are together. You don't have to be republican or democrat or support globalism over nationalism, but if you blame anything on "everyone else" or "that other group" and put yourself on a pedestal then you have no right to talk.






This is exactly the problem. Everyone wants to change someone else's mind. Why not stop and say, "Fuck, this isn't right. Let's talk about a good common ground and then find a way to get there."

Don't be an asshole. Be a better human and start trying to SOLVE a problem rather than spew rhetoric about how we got where we are, or how things will never change unless the "other side" changes first.

I am not interested in changing anyone's mind. That is a hopeless cause. I am interested in relentlessly questioning the ideology of the delusional. Until one side of this argument begins to view themselves as at least fallible and deserving of scrutiny, this situation will not change and what happened last week will happen again.

[SS Junk]

I know you don't hate the cops, but sometimes you don't get why we do what we do.

Do you think the video provided of the cop being killed at the pillars could be used to educate and train first responding officers in this kind of situation? Because what I am picking up, especially from Captain Buffalo Chip is your tactics are just fine the way they are. There's no need for further training regardless of the fact that it is extremely rare to engage a shooter with thousands of civilians close by in a city setting. The smug arrogance is uncanny.

You guys realize both sides have valid points, right? You realize that just saying, "Man, I understand... I hear what you're saying and I don't have the 100% perfect answer" is ok, right? You're not conceding any part of yourself by being empathetic and understanding where others are coming from.

People process things differently. This is a medium to voice those differences. I am merely looking for opinions on the matter because of my curiosity. It's the same as when you have a dumbfuck motorist in front of you doing dumbfuck things. There are times I wish I could sit drives like that down down and ask why they do the things they do while others simply shrug it off. Here is a good place to question logic. Simple as that.

[jewozzy]

With more training could he have done better? Maybe. With prior military experience would he have made a different decisions? Maybe. Who knows.

Three of the officers killed were veterans. 1 had 3 tours in Iraq, 1 was a Marine and former peace keeper in Iraq, and the other was a former Army Ranger. I'd say it came down to shit just hit the fan and they were on the losing side.

For the rest of your statement I don't take it as an us against them or I could have quoted other post's. I see it as Frost isn't taking the totality of the circumstances when he is pointing out why it was illegal for them to use a robot to kill the suspect.

Do you think the video provided of the cop being killed at the pillars could be used to educate and train first responding officers in this kind of situation? Because what I am picking up, especially from Captain Buffalo Chip is your tactics are just fine the way they are. There's no need for further training regardless of the fact that it is extremely rare to engage a shooter with thousands of civilians close by in a city setting. The smug arrogance is uncanny.

There's not a lot of training you can do on that scenario, like you said it's rare. I trained at least a month and a half out of the year when I was on a felony warrant squad and that still wasn't enough. All of that is in addition to actually performing the job the rest of the year. From what I heard from one of the officers that was shot is the Dart officer killed at the pillar was attempting to draw fire away from the two officers that were down and engage from cover. Problem is the guy was advancing much faster than the officer was able to get to the pillar. It is what it is and the outcome sucks. Tactics aren't always to blame for an officers death. I forget the video but there was a trooper in SC I believe that was killed by a single shot from a .25 after he had already placed 5 to the chest with a 38 on a suspect. The .25 just happened to hit him in the armpit and traveled through his body. POS suspect lived and trooper died. Sometimes shit happens.