Drug raid in Georgia...FTP.

[jewozzy]

Physicians don't have the power of life or death or power to ruin a career? So all the people that come out of simple procedures with major health problems due to error should just consider themselves unlucky? If your profession makes a simple mistake that costs someone their life you think they should only be sued? And by sued you mean their insurance pick up the tab. But if its police we lock them up and throw away the key? Mistakes are made everywhere in every profession so to sit and label the vast majority on the isolated incidents isn't fair.

And I think I'm pretty well on the record if I agree with something or disagree with it. Most of the police on this board are the same.

[Broncojohnny]

Physicians don't have the power of life or death or power to ruin a career? So all the people that come out of simple procedures with major health problems due to error should just consider themselves unlucky? If your profession makes a simple mistake that costs someone their life you think they should only be sued? And by sued you mean their insurance pick up the tab. But if its police we lock them up and throw away the key? Mistakes are made everywhere in every profession so to sit and label the vast majority on the isolated incidents isn't fair.

And I think I'm pretty well on the record if I agree with something or disagree with it. Most of the police on this board are the same.

The key difference is people go to a doctor to get help and a doctor agrees to try to help them in a professional capacity.

Law enforcement officers are agents of the state, imposing the will of the government on others.

I am sure you won't see the difference though because "all you are trying to do is help people". That, of course, is part of the problem.

[ceyko]

You can defend your profession, just understand the reality. Most people posting here are normal law abiding - average Joes.

Nobody likes fucked up doctors either. What's the point in the comparison?

[CWO]

I'm no John McClane, I don't carry a weapon, and I'm the last person to say things like, "he's lucky I wasn't there because I would have..." but if you are in my house when I don't expect you to be and I have the chance, you're getting shot (at). You will not have the opportunity to identify yourself.

[talisman]

Like a lot of these "no knock warrants", you have the word of a meth head who admitted to grand theft auto trying to get a man locked up so he can go back and finish looting. Warrants should NEVER be based on an anonymous informant or a drug head. Ever. If their testimony wouldn't hold up during a trial CX, then it shouldn't be basis for a warrant that, by it's very nature, is violent and results in casualties more often than not.

Tell me, if someone kicks in your door in body armor and points weapons in your face and the face of your wife, are you going to just lay yours down or are you going to engage? I know as a law abiding citizen that if someone kicks in my door, odds are they are bad guys and I am within my rights to remove them.

Nice lucid post, Frost.

When you kick in a door on a no-knock warrant and storm the place in force, what are you looking for? Anyone that is a threat...ie, target.

I'm not a stranger to urban warfare tactics...

Boosh!


I really don't see virtually any reason for no knocks, unless you're dealing with someone who has already been violent towards the police. Especially in the middle of the goddamn night. I'd think that this would be common sense.

[Forever_frost]

I was wondering when you would bring up the military vs police argument. And I will once again say that a large number of police are former/current military. I guess they are just trying to "play soldier" too.

So being prior military automatically makes you better trained in room clearing? That's a pretty arrogant statement. I know numerous guys that said they got little to no CQB training when they served. To be fair the same can be said for the average patrol officer.

Actually, I put it like that because a lot of cops want to be soldiers but don't have the spine to kick in a door in a country where they aren't a protected class. In Iraq if I kick in a door, I have to be 100% sure of where I am and that it's an actual threat because they are authorized to possess AK47's. Hell, you can't even always return fire if it's coming from a structure. Cops have APC's and MRAPS but how many are worried about burried 155's and IED's? They have military rank and play SWAT but how many would actually go kicking in the door with just their fire team when they know that not only is that person armed, they 100% believe in dying for their cause?

No, what we get is drug raid/no knock warrant executed and someone gets shot in the head or in the back or their dog is killed and what the cops entered over is not found and "Contact the city about your dog and door." Hell, I have reports sitting here where a Mayor had SWAT unit kick down his door, shoot his dogs and make him lay in it's blood for hours while they looked for drugs. What happened was someone was using his address to have drugs delivered and would pick the package up before the mayor got home. Even the cops who executed the assault said they knew what was going on but dammit, breach and clear is just so damned fun.

[Forever_frost]

Deaths of innocent Americans is more important than deaths of others.

It's quite a bit easier be a LEO in this country than a combat infantryman in a war zone...but you wont hear the Delta-Seal-Cops say that. The entire country is a war zone to them. Facing a well equipped, well trained enemy whose desire is to kill you and every one with you is a bit different than kicking in doors on homes where there may be 1 or 2 adults who may or may not have a weapon.

I'm open for making cops adhere to the same ROE we have to in a war zone. Let's see how they enjoy that.

[jewozzy]

I'm open for making cops adhere to the same ROE we have to in a war zone. Let's see how they enjoy that.

By the statistics of over 100,000 innocents killed in 10 years of info posted (non bad guys) then it seems like there aren't many rules...

[ceyko]

By the statistics of over 100,000 innocents killed in 10 years of info posted (non bad guys) then it seems like there aren't many rules...

By US troops, during recent times? Got link?

[Forever_frost]

By the statistics of over 100,000 innocents killed in 10 years of info posted (non bad guys) then it seems like there aren't many rules...

Would you like a copy of the current ROE or the ROE when I was in versus what cops do to citizens here? I got pegged in the head with a brick and couldn't do anything but stand there and continue to pull security, would a cop just stand there and take it? We had to be sure of our intel before we could enter a residence and had to have an Imam with us to make sure no one had any religious violations placed upon them. Do the police have a disinterested and often adversarial party go with them during these warrant services?

If we take fire from a residence, we can't return fire, we are ordered to withdraw and capture the suspect when they leave the area, what do police do? If we get the wrong house, we hand that entire family a stack of cash, what do police do when they enter the wrong house? What happens to the police when they kill someone's dog wrongly? I fuck up badly enough (killing innocents) and not only do I get charged by my unit and the military, I can come up on war crimes charges. Know what doesn't happen? Paid vacation or desk work.

Let's have this discussion.

Just one article: http://www.captainsjournal.com/2006/...danger-troops/

[talisman]

The whole cop vs the military thing is just a dumb argument. They are two completely different things that each have their own idiosyncrasies. Hell, some of the worst attitudes I've seen come from cops who are former military. Both jobs attract a certain mentality, so it's really no surprise.

[jewozzy]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_documents_leak

Bringing up the military and doctors was just an attempt to show that these are other professions which make mistakes causing life altering decisions because they were the professions of the people arguing. With over 300,000 intaractions with police a day you are going to get a story on the news because its the pure statistic of it.

[jewozzy]

And frost with over 100,000+ documented "accidents" in Iraq alone I'm gunna go out on a limb and say not much happened to those military professionals.

[talisman]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_documents_leak

Bringing up the military and doctors was just an attempt to show that these are other professions which make mistakes causing life altering decisions because they were the professions of the people arguing. With over 300,000 intaractions with police a day you are going to get a story on the news because its the pure statistic of it.

You understand why that is a weak argument technique though, right?

[jewozzy]

You understand why that is a weak argument technique though, right?

The argument is with frosts assessment of theilitary being gods and police wanting to be them. Like I said when I made the post it didn't have to do with the topic at hand.