Drug raid in Georgia...FTP.

[Forever_frost]

Like a lot of these "no knock warrants", you have the word of a meth head who admitted to grand theft auto trying to get a man locked up so he can go back and finish looting. Warrants should NEVER be based on an anonymous informant or a drug head. Ever. If their testimony wouldn't hold up during a trial CX, then it shouldn't be basis for a warrant that, by it's very nature, is violent and results in casualties more often than not.

Tell me, if someone kicks in your door in body armor and points weapons in your face and the face of your wife, are you going to just lay yours down or are you going to engage? I know as a law abiding citizen that if someone kicks in my door, odds are they are bad guys and I am within my rights to remove them.

[juiceweezl]

Like a lot of these "no knock warrants", you have the word of a meth head who admitted to grand theft auto trying to get a man locked up so he can go back and finish looting. Warrants should NEVER be based on an anonymous informant or a drug head. Ever. If their testimony wouldn't hold up during a trial CX, then it shouldn't be basis for a warrant that, by it's very nature, is violent and results in casualties more often than not.

Tell me, if someone kicks in your door in body armor and points weapons in your face and the face of your wife, are you going to just lay yours down or are you going to engage? I know as a law abiding citizen that if someone kicks in my door, odds are they are bad guys and I am within my rights to remove them.

/thread

[JamisonFRC]

Like a lot of these "no knock warrants", you have the word of a meth head who admitted to grand theft auto trying to get a man locked up so he can go back and finish looting. Warrants should NEVER be based on an anonymous informant or a drug head. Ever. If their testimony wouldn't hold up during a trial CX, then it shouldn't be basis for a warrant that, by it's very nature, is violent and results in casualties more often than not.

Tell me, if someone kicks in your door in body armor and points weapons in your face and the face of your wife, are you going to just lay yours down or are you going to engage? I know as a law abiding citizen that if someone kicks in my door, odds are they are bad guys and I am within my rights to remove them.

Once again, this was not a no knock warrant according to the article. Please show me stats backing your statement about no knocks resulting in casualties more often than not. That is absolute garbage.

As far as what I would do if someone kicked in my door, I don't know. I would like to think I would accurately identify my target before I engaged. But since I am not a criminal I would tend to believe it is not LE forcing entry. However, I am not an internet commando that has never been in a stressful, real life threat situation that says I would drop every one of them in the front door (Not directed at you Frost). I can only hope that I respond appropriately.

[davbrucas]

According to the article it was not a no knock warrant. I realize it also states that the resident claims there was not an announcement. However, they had a search warrant and on approach he opens the door with a gun in his hand then retreats into the house. Yep, they should have stopped, knocked and announced, then made entry. Totally logical.

I'll let you all in on a secret, narc warrants do not always yield narcotics at the location. I realize that every cop show/movie you watch they find pounds of dope everywhere. Like most things police related in movies, it's not accurate. Maybe the guy had not re-upped. Maybe he has a stash house. Lots of variables. But just because no drugs were found does not make it a bad warrant.

No knock warrants are not handed out like candy. There are certain criteria that must be met to even request a no knock. Even when the requirements are met that doesn't mean that the judge will sign off. Some examples are previous weapons charges, intel on weapons and/or fortifications, arrest history, etc. I know it is easier to blindly believe that we walk in to a judge's office and say "sign this" and we walk out with a no knock. That is simply not the case.

Like most police work, 99% of the time the use of force on no knocks is limited to verbal and "hands on" to handcuff. I honestly believe that the proper use of no knock warrants has a big hand in that. You military guys know the term "OODA loop". It works. We encounter people with a long history of weapon charges, agg assault, murder, etc with weapons within arms reach. But for some reason they choose not to use them most of the time. Obviously I cannot say with absolute certainty that the use of a no knock kept them from using the weapon, but I believe it helps.

I am not blindly loyal to the job to think that no knocks are never abused or mistakes don't happen. Absolutely they do. Just like there are corrupt officers out there. However, only the very few mistakes are publicized. I would love for police work to be 100% infallible but that is impossible. We are humans after all. Even with lengthy back ground checks, psych exams and polygraphs people slip through. When these people break the law they should be punished.

I'll end this rant with this, FTP! And I apologize for any grammatical or spelling mistakes as I am currently under the influence of large dose of NyQuil.

Where did you read this? My take is he opened the door of the bedroom he was sleeping with his gun in his hand when he heard his wife scream. He went back into the bedroom to get his pants on when he realized the threat was not immediate...then the JBTs kicked the door in and Mr Hooks came back out of his bedroom and got killed.

And as far as your comment on what you would do if someone kicked your door in and you identifying your target before engaging...your kind will not give you that time. You hesitate, youre dead. JBTs kicking in doors are amped up looking for a target...and a homeowner with a gun is a target.

[JamisonFRC]

Where did you read this? My take is he opened the door of the bedroom he was sleeping with his gun in his hand when he heard his wife scream. He went back into the bedroom to get his pants on when he realized the threat was not immediate...then the JBTs kicked the door in and Mr Hooks came back out of his bedroom and got killed.

And as far as your comment on what you would do if someone kicked your door in and you identifying your target before engaging...your kind will not give you that time. You hesitate, youre dead. JBTs kicking in doors are amped up looking for a target...and a homeowner with a gun is a target.

I re-read the article. I initially read it as he opened the front door. My apologies.

However, since you know through your vast, direct, first hand knowledge that "my kind" are simply looking for a target when we serve warrants where are the hundreds, if not thousands, of people shot every day throughout the US?

[Forever_frost]

I re-read the article. I initially read it as he opened the front door. My apologies.

However, since you know through your vast, direct, first hand knowledge that "my kind" are simply looking for a target when we serve warrants where are the hundreds, if not thousands, of people shot every day throughout the US?

What is the first response of armed cops in swat gear doing a dynamic entry when they see someone with a firearm and what is the natural response of an armed homeowner to someone kicking in their door?

[Forever_frost]

Once again, this was not a no knock warrant according to the article. Please show me stats backing your statement about no knocks resulting in casualties more often than not. That is absolute garbage.

As far as what I would do if someone kicked in my door, I don't know. I would like to think I would accurately identify my target before I engaged. But since I am not a criminal I would tend to believe it is not LE forcing entry. However, I am not an internet commando that has never been in a stressful, real life threat situation that says I would drop every one of them in the front door (Not directed at you Frost). I can only hope that I respond appropriately.

And that is the thing. Armed men entering your home with extreme violence should be met with the same. The worst nightmare for someone on a breach team is someone who has been better trained and is paranoid enough to prepare against such an assault. These warrants should not be served in the middle of the night. This is an old man that could have been stopped away from his home the next morning and detained while they execute a warrant on his home...peacefully. But that isn't exciting and doesn't let cops play soldier.

If a cop wants to get his gun off and play soldier and kick in doors, I can refer them to a great recruiter that will give them plenty of opportunity to do so.

[KBScobravert]

What is the first response of armed cops in swat gear doing a dynamic entry when they see someone with a firearm and what is the natural response of an armed homeowner to someone kicking in their door?

Ballet of death

[JamisonFRC]

What is the first response of armed cops in swat gear doing a dynamic entry when they see someone with a firearm and what is the natural response of an armed homeowner to someone kicking in their door?

Obviously shoot immediately. I mean, we are just looking for a target you know.

The same as any other encounter with an armed person. There are too many variables to list out, but simply put, are they an immediate threat or not.

[JamisonFRC]

And that is the thing. Armed men entering your home with extreme violence should be met with the same. The worst nightmare for someone on a breach team is someone who has been better trained and is paranoid enough to prepare against such an assault. These warrants should not be served in the middle of the night. This is an old man that could have been stopped away from his home the next morning and detained while they execute a warrant on his home...peacefully. But that isn't exciting and doesn't let cops play soldier.

If a cop wants to get his gun off and play soldier and kick in doors, I can refer them to a great recruiter that will give them plenty of opportunity to do so.

I was wondering when you would bring up the military vs police argument. And I will once again say that a large number of police are former/current military. I guess they are just trying to "play soldier" too.

So being prior military automatically makes you better trained in room clearing? That's a pretty arrogant statement. I know numerous guys that said they got little to no CQB training when they served. To be fair the same can be said for the average patrol officer.

[jewozzy]

I wonder who has killed more innocent people since Iraq began. The highly trained military or us measly old cops. Care to take a guess?

[Denny]

I wonder who has killed more innocent people since Iraq began. The highly trained military or us measly old cops. Care to take a guess?

I'd say cops killed more innocent Americans and military killed more innocent Iraqis.

[jewozzy]

I'd say cops killed more innocent Americans and military killed more innocent Iraqis.

Well if we are changing the question I guess you are correct. The next thing I was going to bring up was the fact that there are over 5-10x as many police in the nation than military members were in Iraq at its height yet the number of innocent victims (of each nation) were roughly 10x less in police shootings.

[davbrucas]

I re-read the article. I initially read it as he opened the front door. My apologies.

However, since you know through your vast, direct, first hand knowledge that "my kind" are simply looking for a target when we serve warrants where are the hundreds, if not thousands, of people shot every day throughout the US?

When you kick in a door on a no-knock warrant and storm the place in force, what are you looking for? Anyone that is a threat...ie, target.

I'm not a stranger to urban warfare tactics...

[jewozzy]

Also I'm not saying this situation was a good one. I'd like to have a chance to see the warrant first but its a good shoot from the standpoint of the deceased had a shotgun in his hands. I'm not disagreeing about not trusting a snitch or that he was wrong to want to defend his house I'm saying that whoever got thr warrant if in fact that was all they had to go on then they really screwed the team that made entry.

My military sidebar was more of an argument with frost since he's the know all with military. I'm sure he's going to come back about it being a hostile war zone yet won't be able to counter the argument of bad Intel leads to innocent victims.