mike brown vs. eric garner

[Denny]

mace-not against policy
taser-not against policy
choking a man to death-obv. not against policy either.

god bless.

That is a bad argument. Against policy does not always equate to illegal acts.

[BP]

This was at least indictable. I'm not a FTP guy nor am I a badge homer, but anyone with a reasonable head on their shoulders could see that it was enough for a judge to hear both sides.

Neither prosecutor did a very good job presenting their case to the grand jury. What kind of attorney goes to court and presents both sides? A prosecutor is supposed to present one side of the argument in the best light possible to get an indictment.

Instead they were both worried about their relationships with the local populace and the police force so they deferred judgement to the grand jury. Where everything is handled in secret and there isn't anyone there to cross examine witnesses.

[Broncojohnny]

That is a bad argument. Against policy does not always equate to illegal acts.

True but at the same time there is a reason why they don't allow it. This guy did it anyway and should be held accountable.

[dcs13]

I have watched the video and so have "experts". They agree its not a choke hold.
Look at any MMA fight, if anyone was going to die from a choke hold , it would be an MMA fighter.
The head lock had nothing to do with his breathing issue. His breathing issue came bout because he was face down with weight on him (his own and the officers) look up positional asphyxia.
From the last time you hear "I can't breath" to where there is an obvious issue is less than 30 seconds. Anyone can hold their breath that long. He had his arm around his neck for a very short period of time taking him down and he was talking after that. You have to breath to talk.
Its a bad deal, but this is a mdeical issue with a 400 lb guy that decided he didn't want to get arrested.

[Denny]

I have watched the video and so have "experts". They agree its not a choke hold.
Look at any MMA fight, if anyone was going to die from a choke hold , it would be an MMA fighter.
The head lock had nothing to do with his breathing issue. His breathing issue came bout because he was face down with weight on him (his own and the officers) look up positional asphyxia.
From the last time you hear "I can't breath" to where there is an obvious issue is less than 30 seconds. Anyone can hold their breath that long. He had his arm around his neck for a very short period of time taking him down and he was talking after that. You have to breath to talk.
Its a bad deal, but this is a mdeical issue with a 400 lb guy that decided he didn't want to get arrested.

So... the officer's actions played a role in his death. Gotcha.

[Jewrrick]

I have watched the video and so have "experts". They agree its not a choke hold.
Look at any MMA fight, if anyone was going to die from a choke hold , it would be an MMA fighter.
The head lock had nothing to do with his breathing issue. His breathing issue came bout because he was face down with weight on him (his own and the officers) look up positional asphyxia.
From the last time you hear "I can't breath" to where there is an obvious issue is less than 30 seconds. Anyone can hold their breath that long. He had his arm around his neck for a very short period of time taking him down and he was talking after that. You have to breath to talk.
Its a bad deal, but this is a mdeical issue with a 400 lb guy that decided he didn't want to get arrested.

Sorry all I see from you is "Slurp slurp slurp...spit...slurp slurp...gag...slurp...gag...spit..."

[dcs13]

Sorry all I see from you is "Slurp slurp slurp...spit...slurp slurp...gag...slurp...gag...spit..."

Yeah, don't let facts get in the way. When facts don't work on the side of your argument, start calling names and foul... That's one of the problems with some of you guys. Can't have an adult conversation with actual opinions.

[juiceweezl]

So... the officer's actions played a role in his death. Gotcha.

LOL round and round we go...

I don't think there's any question the LEO's actions played a role in his death. I don't think he choked him to death though as people want to claim. This one probably should have been brought to court for real though, and I would guess not guilty would be the verdict. I think the man resisted and they did what they could have to take him down. Personally, I think they should have done more to deescalate the situation and even used a taser if necessary. I think all the LEO's were a little too aggressive in this case, but I don't think they have truly committed a crime...but that should be for a jury to decide.

[Sean88gt]

I have watched the video and so have "experts". They agree its not a choke hold.
Look at any MMA fight, if anyone was going to die from a choke hold , it would be an MMA fighter.
The head lock had nothing to do with his breathing issue. His breathing issue came bout because he was face down with weight on him (his own and the officers) look up positional asphyxia.
From the last time you hear "I can't breath" to where there is an obvious issue is less than 30 seconds. Anyone can hold their breath that long. He had his arm around his neck for a very short period of time taking him down and he was talking after that. You have to breath to talk.
Its a bad deal, but this is a mdeical issue with a 400 lb guy that decided he didn't want to get arrested.

Your [il]logic is deeply flawed. First, a UFC fighter is trained to handle it, and is conditioned to 1. Tap out 2. Know when the recipient is going out, and 3. Generally have a referee there to stop the pending death.

Seems also that if weight was on him, and he was having difficulty breathing, then an arm around the neck squeezing doesn't really fucking help open his airways.

Have your ever been in a headlock? Have you ever been choked out? Do you realize that in mma it is referred to as "choking someone out"? Do you always argue semantics?

As far as "anyone can hold their breath that long" you clearly lack understanding of the move, or the fact that a choke hold does several things like cutting off air AND blood supply to the brain, along with constricting the throat/larynx. People freak out when wrapped up like that.

Whether the cop's goal was to just take the guy down or not, the guy died as a result of the officer's action. So read it this way, "But for the officer constricting the man's throat, he would have lived."

[dcs13]

So... the officer's actions played a role in his death. Gotcha.

But not to the level of a "criminal" charge. There's no intent to kill the guy, there's no negligence that lead to the death. Negligence is "known or should have known" that a death would occur. No one ever expected the guy to die. So now cops can't arrest big fat guys because they might resist and die while fighting ?
Bad stuff happens when people resist being handcuffed. It's not unheard of for cops to get on top of someone they're trying to arrest. I bet it happens a lot. Unfortunately, sometimes people have other medical issues that come to the forefront when their heart rate comes up for the first time in 40 years.

And there was no damage to the trachea. Thus, even if he had "choked" him, he would have been able to breath. The arm wasn't on there long enough restrict airflow long enough to make him pass out. And the officer did not have constriction on the carotid artery at all, it was too loose.

[Sean88gt]

But not to the level of a "criminal" charge. There's no intent to kill the guy, there's no negligence that lead to the death. Negligence is "known or should have known" that a death would occur. No one ever expected the guy to die. So now cops can't arrest big fat guys because they might resist and die while fighting ?
Bad stuff happens when people resist being handcuffed. It's not unheard of for cops to get on top of someone they're trying to arrest. I bet it happens a lot. Unfortunately, sometimes people have other medical issues that come to the forefront when their heart rate comes up for the first time in 40 years.

Don't spout terms if you don't know what they mean.
Negligence contains 5 elements:
1. A duty
2. A breach of that duty
3. Actual cause
4. Proximate cause
5. Actual harm.

So go step by step. What was the officer's duty? Did he breach it? Likely, since the dude died as the result of a tactic not allowed. Was his action the result of the death? Could be. Was it the proximate cause? Likely. Whether the guy was x lbs, or in y health, it doesn't matter, the officer's action were the trigger of whatever happened that led to his death. And was there actual harm or damage? Yep.

I've got a 30 page outline on just negligence, if you'd like to expand your horizon beyond "known or should have known"...

[Sean88gt]

As a side note, don't confuse criminal charge with criminal conviction. That is generally for a jury to determine, and that generality was denied in this case (and apparently most cass involving police).

[Denny]

Don't spout terms if you don't know what they mean.
Negligence contains 5 elements:
1. A duty
2. A breach of that duty
3. Actual cause
4. Proximate cause
5. Actual harm.

So go step by step. What was the officer's duty? Did he breach it? Likely, since the dude died as the result of a tactic not allowed. Was his action the result of the death? Could be. Was it the proximate cause? Likely. Whether the guy was x lbs, or in y health, it doesn't matter, the officer's action were the trigger of whatever happened that led to his death. And was there actual harm or damage? Yep.

I've got a 30 page outline on just negligence, if you'd like to expand your horizon beyond "known or should have known"...

Egg

As a side note, don't confuse criminal charge with criminal conviction. That is generally for a jury to determine, and that generality was denied in this case (and apparently most cass involving police).

Zachary

He already has him as not guilty. This process is to determine if any crime was possibly committed.

[ftp]

All of this over the man selling a loose ciggarette, it's sad what has happened to this country.

[46Tbird]

But not to the level of a "criminal" charge.

You are out of your fucking mind.

If I bully a big fat guy to the ground and he dies as a result, do you think there will be a grand jury indictment for a criminal charge? You bet your sweet ass there will be.

Go ahead, tell us again how there was no intent to kill and that absolves him of all responsibility for his actions that lead to a death. I need another laugh.