Gunman holed up inside Latonia home starts fire, surrenders to police

[Forever_frost]

Frost, how long were you in Afghanistan for? Pardon me, but it sounds like you are parroting off quite an idealized version of what are ultimately unrealistic expectations. When you're a kid, things are black and white. When you grow up, you're supposed to figure out that nothing in this world is an absolute.

I wasn't in Afghanistan, I was in Iraq. I still do have an idealized view of most things. I still believe in the best of things, that those who take positions of authority are doing so to make the world a better place and thus should be held not only in the highest of regards but to the highest of standards. When they fail those standards, they should be immediately replaced and made an example of when they break the trust put in them.

[talisman]

My bad. We've had so many members in both places I get them switched up. How long were you there for?

[Forever_frost]

My bad. We've had so many members in both places I get them switched up. How long were you there for?

Not nearly long enough. I was made to leave and denied a return flight. It's not something I'm happy about.

[Pokulski-Blatz]

Not nearly long enough. I was made to leave and denied a return flight. It's not something I'm happy about.

I can understand this mindset.

Just wanted to add that before someone came in calling you crazy.

[Forever_frost]

I can understand this mindset.

Just wanted to add that before someone came in calling you crazy.

There are a few who can. Survivor's guilt is a bitch but it's Christmas so I pour a drink for my brothers and say thank you to those who are not with me.

Merry Christmas everyone

[talisman]

Not nearly long enough. I was made to leave and denied a return flight. It's not something I'm happy about.

I understand that obviously. No offense, but I'm looking for an exact number. Mostly because of these two quotes:

We crossed our T's and dotted our I's because court martial hearings are very bad things and that's during a war. We treated everyone with respect. We didn't gun down dogs in their yards because 'we felt threatened.'

Why? It's because soldiers fight wars. They engage the enemy face to face and you expect combat soldiers to let off steam and get into trouble. You can't be in a war for a decade and not think fucking with civilians is fun. When the enemy in a war zone is better protected by rules and punishments against those who violate those rules than those citizens are at home from their own public servants, that should never happen.

The reason I ask is because of the standards you are holding others to in this thread. It makes me curious how long you were in Iraq to build up this opinion of how near perfectly everything was executed over there. Especially considering a story I was told about how a couple of dogs were treated by other soldiers in an incident, witnessed by an Iraq Vet that is also a member on here.

[jewozzy]

I understand that obviously. No offense, but I'm looking for an exact number. Mostly because of these two quotes:

We crossed our T's and dotted our I's because court martial hearings are very bad things and that's during a war. We treated everyone with respect. We didn't gun down dogs in their yards because 'we felt threatened.'

Why? It's because soldiers fight wars. They engage the enemy face to face and you expect combat soldiers to let off steam and get into trouble. You can't be in a war for a decade and not think fucking with civilians is fun. When the enemy in a war zone is better protected by rules and punishments against those who violate those rules than those citizens are at home from their own public servants, that should never happen.

The reason I ask is because of the standards you are holding others to in this thread. It makes me curious how long you were in Iraq to build up this opinion of how near perfectly everything was executed over there. Especially considering a story I was told about how a couple of dogs were treated by other soldiers in an incident, witnessed by an Iraq Vet that is also a member on here.

Guess he won't answer that one...

[Forever_frost]

I was there for 4 days and went on 8 patrols. I held the line and did not engage people who were armed but not actively aiming at me and was prevented from engaging individuals who threw chunks of brick that bounced off my kevlar. Instead of kicking in doors we THOUGHT were the right one, we spent hours making sure, sitting and watching to ensure it was the right one before we did a breach. We checked our fire and only engaged those that were active threats, not hosing down entire rooms and killing animals that happened to be there.

I have done a lot of fucked up things but I have one thing to say. I have never opened fire on anyone that was not an IMMEDIATE threat to myself or my team. As a matter of fact, I didn't even engage the firefight until after I was wounded because I did not have a clear shot and/or there were innocents behind my target.

I'll be more than happy to answer questions and take responsibility for my actions and lack thereof. I also kept in close contact during my rehabilitation and the time I was homeless, with my team in the field through letters and/or emails when I could get to a computer. I still talk to many of my guys and am constantly being updated on our new ROE's and the bullshit we are saddled with. Compared to our ROE's, cops have too much leeway and not enough stick when they mess up.

Any other questions?

[talisman]

4 days? There are a million ways to misinterpret what I'm about to say, so feel free to choose one, but here it is: You've got to stop this shit. You are turning into a carbon copy antithesis of Matt, arguing the anti-police side into science fiction and "What if'" to infinity. Being an idealist is a joke. A pipedream. It's shit teenagers do their first year in college when they go vote for a guy like Obama. It's a fantastic way to never be taken seriously. Hell, I'm an idealist at heart. But you have to temper it with reality, and pick the right side.

You're candy coating an experience you barely even had and applying it to others, demanding they hold themselves to a gold standard that doesn't exist. It's time to grow up, and stop going off the deep end about every news article you come across that has the word police in it. In fact, you might want to stop watching the news altogether. I did about ten years ago and noticed an instant increase in my quality of life.

The last month you've been raging like a fucking lunatic on here. I don't know if the holidays bother you or what, but you you need to take a look at your behaviors and see if anything positive are coming from them. Because I can honestly say it has gotten to a point where I cringe every time I see you've replied to something.

[Rick Modena]

Because I can honestly say it has gotten to a point where I cringe every time I see you've replied to something.

Did Kyler remove the 'Ignore Member Button' ?

[talisman]

Did Kyler remove the 'Ignore Member Button' ?

Apparently not, according to at least one other poster in this thread.

[Forever_frost]

4 days? There are a million ways to misinterpret what I'm about to say, so feel free to choose one, but here it is: You've got to stop this shit. You are turning into a carbon copy antithesis of Matt, arguing the anti-police side into science fiction and "What if'" to infinity. Being an idealist is a joke. A pipedream. It's shit teenagers do their first year in college when they go vote for a guy like Obama. It's a fantastic way to never be taken seriously. Hell, I'm an idealist at heart. But you have to temper it with reality, and pick the right side.

You're candy coating an experience you barely even had and applying it to others, demanding they hold themselves to a gold standard that doesn't exist. It's time to grow up, and stop going off the deep end about every news article you come across that has the word police in it. In fact, you might want to stop watching the news altogether. I did about ten years ago and noticed an instant increase in my quality of life.

The last month you've been raging like a fucking lunatic on here. I don't know if the holidays bother you or what, but you you need to take a look at your behaviors and see if anything positive are coming from them. Because I can honestly say it has gotten to a point where I cringe every time I see you've replied to something.

Well it seems my idealism and general nuttiness has scored me another trip to the House in DC. I'll let you know how it turns out. Yes, I'm idealistic. I realize this. I also know that if a round goes wide in Iraq and we hit a kid or a house or dog, there is someone right behind us with a huge bag of cash to pay out.

Do you really want to know what happens if you're the LT who authorizes a raid and it's the wrong house and you rack up civilian casualties because you failed to double check that the house was the right one? Do you think it's paid leave of absence or do you think it's slightly worse than that?

[talisman]

Well it seems my idealism and general nuttiness has scored me another trip to the House in DC. I'll let you know how it turns out. Yes, I'm idealistic. I realize this. I also know that if a round goes wide in Iraq and we hit a kid or a house or dog, there is someone right behind us with a huge bag of cash to pay out.

Do you really want to know what happens if you're the LT who authorizes a raid and it's the wrong house and you rack up civilian casualties because you failed to double check that the house was the right one? Do you think it's paid leave of absence or do you think it's slightly worse than that?

None of which has anything to do with this thread. And I'm sorry, but what you experienced in that whooping 4 days can hardly be called concrete for every situation over there, and it certainly isn't, based on stories I've heard from other friends who served. So. Still going to continue rambling on like a lunatic every time the police are mentioned in the news? Congrats, the military does things differently. No fucking shit. We all get it. All you're doing is alienating the reasonable people who approach these things without intentional bias. Is that the result you're looking for?

[Forever_frost]

None of which has anything to do with this thread. And I'm sorry, but what you experienced in that whooping 4 days can hardly be called concrete for every situation over there, and it certainly isn't, based on stories I've heard from other friends who served. So. Still going to continue rambling on like a lunatic every time the police are mentioned in the news? Congrats, the military does things differently. No fucking shit. We all get it. All you're doing is alienating the reasonable people who approach these things without intentional bias. Is that the result you're looking for?

Actually, if these incidents stopped happening and cops stopped violating civil rights of citizens and actually had punishments when they do, I'd run out of things to rant about wouldn't I?

[talisman]

Actually, if these incidents stopped happening and cops stopped violating civil rights of citizens and actually had punishments when they do, I'd run out of things to rant about wouldn't I?

Apparently not, since the cops in this case didn't do anything wrong. What a goofy contention, when you know that I completely loathe cops who abuse their power. You know, I asked Matt these same questions from the reverse angle years ago. So, again: Do you think alienating people with childish expectations and ideology is being helpful to your cause or harmful? You've got to be asking yourself while normal everyday posters, that aren't here thriving on drama, are putting you on ignore. Don't waste my time telling me you don't care, because if you were genuinely interested in delivering your message effectively, you would.