Gunman holed up inside Latonia home starts fire, surrenders to police

[aggie97]

The article states that when the police arrived, he was inside with his kids and then the SWAT was called in. If he told them to fuck off, they should have left. You don't bust people for what they post on fucking Facebook. If they thought he was a danger to himself, you go get a court order and/or a warrant and handle it legally, not posting up SWAT and local cops in a perimeter around his house.

Want to know how to trigger a bad PTSD time? Let a veteran look out his window and see a bunch of rifles pointed in his direction.

This. Seriously, a SWAT team? That is like calling in 13 police officers to subdue my 85 year old grandmother with alzheimers and a fractured vertebra in a nursing home and then take her to jail where all her heirloom jewelry is stolen during a psych eval.

Sure, send an officer by and assess the situation. If he met that guy at the door with a weapon, yeah. Negotiate. If he said go away...go away. Again, I agree there is probably a lot of missing information in the news story so we are all quarterbacking a story we don't know all the facts about...so essentially, we are all being played by the media to gain ratings to sell commercials for tampons. Take care of yourself and your family and quit worrying about everyone else.

[JamisonFRC]

I can assure you they didn't get a call about some guy posting a veiled suicide outcry on FB and immediately send the swat team to his house.

Generally speaking, there is a process. A force continuum if you will.

Just guessing how this went down (since I've actually been apart of a few in various roles)

Patrol gets a check welfare call and responds
They try to make contact and see/hear something that leads them to believe the person is a danger to himself or others.
They likely call a supervisor who then assesses the situation and makes the call to start swat/negotiators.
And it continues from there.

But reading the story and using Frost's FTP jump to conclusions mat I can see where it's easy to believe swat teams respond first to every patrol call.

[stevo]

How is that response different than when people get internet 'swatted'? There are a few stories out there of people getting their doors kicked in due to things said on Xbox and Playstation chats.

Stevo

[Forever_frost]

How is that response different than when people get internet 'swatted'? There are a few stories out there of people getting their doors kicked in due to things said on Xbox and Playstation chats.

Stevo

And that is my point. Someone having a call placed because they're "suicidal" or posting random shit doesn't merit a police visit. YOu have no way of verifying the information on the call and if you show up here armed, and I know I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm going to tell you to go away. Nicely.

If that nicely turns into SWAT showing up, it goes downhill from there.

[Forever_frost]

I can assure you they didn't get a call about some guy posting a veiled suicide outcry on FB and immediately send the swat team to his house.

Generally speaking, there is a process. A force continuum if you will.

Just guessing how this went down (since I've actually been apart of a few in various roles)

Patrol gets a check welfare call and responds
They try to make contact and see/hear something that leads them to believe the person is a danger to himself or others.
They likely call a supervisor who then assesses the situation and makes the call to start swat/negotiators.
And it continues from there.

But reading the story and using Frost's FTP jump to conclusions mat I can see where it's easy to believe swat teams respond first to every patrol call.

Or, you have a bunch of cops that haven't gotten to break out their neat SWAT armor and their MRAP and want to go play military so they hop in the uparmored APC and roll out to a guy's house thinking that the show of force is intimidating instead of figuring that the guy may not want to send his kids out towards a group of heavily armed men pointing firearms at him.

But what do I know about guys with PTSD's thought processes?

[talisman]

And that is my point. Someone having a call placed because they're "suicidal" or posting random shit doesn't merit a police visit. YOu have no way of verifying the information on the call and if you show up here armed, and I know I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm going to tell you to go away. Nicely.

If that nicely turns into SWAT showing up, it goes downhill from there.

He didn't post anything random. He made a very specific thinly veiled suicide threat. On Facebook. Pretty sure that is easily verifiable. You've been trying really hard to get upset about things lately. Turn off the news for a week and spend some time with your family over Christmas. There are plenty of real problems out there to get upset about. This isn't one of them.

[JamisonFRC]

And that is my point. Someone having a call placed because they're "suicidal" or posting random shit doesn't merit a police visit. YOu have no way of verifying the information on the call and if you show up here armed, and I know I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm going to tell you to go away. Nicely.

If that nicely turns into SWAT showing up, it goes downhill from there.

Will you please tell our dispatch to stop sending me (and every other officer in the US) to suicidal subject calls? And tell mom and dad to stop calling us to check on their kid that went off to college. The one they haven't heard from in weeks. You know the one that struggled through the last semester. Got in some serious credit card debt and told his friends he was "done". You're right, it doesn't merit a police response. Next time I'm working the desk I'll forward the concerned mom to you so you can explain how we're just itching to initiate a swat callout on her kiddo.

[Forever_frost]

Will you please tell our dispatch to stop sending me (and every other officer in the US) to suicidal subject calls? And tell mom and dad to stop calling us to check on their kid that went off to college. The one they haven't heard from in weeks. You know the one that struggled through the last semester. Got in some serious credit card debt and told his friends he was "done". You're right, it doesn't merit a police response. Next time I'm working the desk I'll forward the concerned mom to you so you can explain how we're just itching to initiate a swat callout on her kiddo.

Right, how about cops stop kicking down the wrong doors, killing pets, shooting homeowners in their own yards and sometimes in their own homes while they're unarmed? How about officers stop raging when someone tells the officer "No, you can't search my car/home, you have no reason to?"

How about cops stop trying to be more and more militarized and give up the full automatic weapons and the uparmored APC's? Want to be Officer Joe Friendly who pops in, offers his card and a "Hey man, buck up, you have people who care?" Then be that guy. You show up with weapons drawn and demand that I talk to you? Fuck off. You show up with SWAT? Fuck off more.

If they had shown up, knocked and said "Hey man, how are you doing? You okay?" and then left it at that, I have no issue. If they'd have knocked and said "Hey, we got a call you were upset. Everything fine? Kids okay?" No problem.

Unless he drew a weapon on the officers when they walked up, I fail to see any situation outside of him opening fire or setting the house immediately on fire or the kids screaming bloody murder, how this could possibly escalate to SWAT. While respecting the rights of this man.

[JamisonFRC]

Right, how about cops stop kicking down the wrong doors, killing pets, shooting homeowners in their own yards and sometimes in their own homes while they're unarmed? How about officers stop raging when someone tells the officer "No, you can't search my car/home, you have no reason to?"

How about cops stop trying to be more and more militarized and give up the full automatic weapons and the uparmored APC's? Want to be Officer Joe Friendly who pops in, offers his card and a "Hey man, buck up, you have people who care?" Then be that guy. You show up with weapons drawn and demand that I talk to you? Fuck off. You show up with SWAT? Fuck off more.

If they had shown up, knocked and said "Hey man, how are you doing? You okay?" and then left it at that, I have no issue. If they'd have knocked and said "Hey, we got a call you were upset. Everything fine? Kids okay?" No problem.

Unless he drew a weapon on the officers when they walked up, I fail to see any situation outside of him opening fire or setting the house immediately on fire or the kids screaming bloody murder, how this could possibly escalate to SWAT. While respecting the rights of this man.

Predictable. Frost goes on his normal tirade while completely ignoring the fact that we get these calls everyday. I'm glad you're an expert in how police handle calls.

Who's to say they didn't make the initial contact with the "hey, how are you doing?" Honestly, that is how it happens 99% of the time. Something happened to warrant an escalated response.

His rights? What about his kids rights? Was he a danger to them? I would assume so if he decides to set his house on fire. I realize that he already let the kids go by the time he set the fire. But obviously he was thinking rationally upto the point he burned down his own house.

Bottom line is this, and I hope everyone on the board realizes this, frost is the end all be all to Police work. He is an expert in Police policy and procedures. He knows how they should respond in every situation. Even though he has never done the job. His vast military experience has prepared him for police work. Even though it is heinous to even imagine police using anything remotely similar to military tactics or weapons.

Military vet Police officers be damned. They apparently lose their military training when they become police officers. They certainly cannot use any of their military training as a lowly civilian jack booted thug. They have forsaken all oaths to defend the constitution and now only wish to trample it.

[talisman]

Right, how about cops stop kicking down the wrong doors, killing pets, shooting homeowners in their own yards and sometimes in their own homes while they're unarmed? How about officers stop raging when someone tells the officer "No, you can't search my car/home, you have no reason to?"

How about cops stop trying to be more and more militarized and give up the full automatic weapons and the uparmored APC's? Want to be Officer Joe Friendly who pops in, offers his card and a "Hey man, buck up, you have people who care?" Then be that guy. You show up with weapons drawn and demand that I talk to you? Fuck off. You show up with SWAT? Fuck off more.

If they had shown up, knocked and said "Hey man, how are you doing? You okay?" and then left it at that, I have no issue. If they'd have knocked and said "Hey, we got a call you were upset. Everything fine? Kids okay?" No problem.

Unless he drew a weapon on the officers when they walked up, I fail to see any situation outside of him opening fire or setting the house immediately on fire or the kids screaming bloody murder, how this could possibly escalate to SWAT. While respecting the rights of this man.

Well, I'm just glad you know how they approached him and made a bunch of blanket statements that have nothing to do with this incident so that you could get that diatribe out of your system.

[Forever_frost]

Predictable. Frost goes on his normal tirade while completely ignoring the fact that we get these calls everyday. I'm glad you're an expert in how police handle calls.

Who's to say they didn't make the initial contact with the "hey, how are you doing?" Honestly, that is how it happens 99% of the time. Something happened to warrant an escalated response.

His rights? What about his kids rights? Was he a danger to them? I would assume so if he decides to set his house on fire. I realize that he already let the kids go by the time he set the fire. But obviously he was thinking rationally upto the point he burned down his own house.

Bottom line is this, and I hope everyone on the board realizes this, frost is the end all be all to Police work. He is an expert in Police policy and procedures. He knows how they should respond in every situation. Even though he has never done the job. His vast military experience has prepared him for police work. Even though it is heinous to even imagine police using anything remotely similar to military tactics or weapons.

Military vet Police officers be damned. They apparently lose their military training when they become police officers. They certainly cannot use any of their military training as a lowly civilian jack booted thug. They have forsaken all oaths to defend the constitution and now only wish to trample it.

If cops didn't think they were infantrymen and didn't try to play special forces on American citizens using tactics that we can't even use in war, violating rights that if a soldier used, he'd be sitting in Leavenworth, we'd not have this discussion.

Do you want to compare ROE's from what you are able to do, what cops are in the news doing every day to what the ROE is in Iraq and Afghanistan? Guess which one is more restrictive

[Forever_frost]

LATONIA, KY (FOX19) -
A former combat veteran is in custody after an extensive standoff with authorities in Latonia.

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PHOTOS: Standoff situation in Latonia

A military veteran is in custody after nearly 20-hour standoff with SWAT teams in Latonia.
More >
The incident began when authorities were called to the home of Michael Vaughan in the 4300 block of Michigan Ave on Saturday. Upon arrival, Vaughan refused to let them inside and barricaded himself and his three children in the home.

Covington Chief of Police Spike Jones said there was reason to believe Vaughan was dealing with issues related to post traumatic stress disorder.

SWAT teams were called to the home, upon which Vaughan began to fire shots from the third-story window of his home. According to police, negotiators from Covington's tactical team were communicating with Vaughan in to the overnight hours.

Vaughan was interacting with people via his Facebook page during the first 7 hours of the event. He referenced grievances with veteran's service offices in his posts and threatened to continue to defend himself no matter the outcome of the situation. He also mentioned several times that his children were asleep and not aware of what was going on.

Chief Jones said authorities were very concerned for the safety of the children. Around 8 a.m. on Sunday, Vaughan agreed to release the children in exchange for a phone call with an unspecified individual he wanted to speak with.

The three children, ages 15, 11 and five, were smoothly retrieved from the home. According to Chief Jones, the children were immediately put in to an armored vehicle and taken for medical evaluation, saying they were "great and followed our directions." All three children are currently in the custody of family members.

Vaughan began firing at authorities again around 12:40 p.m., with officers returning fire. He was struck with a bullet in the upper arm, an injury authorities say is non-life threatening.

After the gunfire exchange, Vaughan set his home on fire but was apprehended by police before the fire became too serious.

Crews put out the fire and Vaughan was taken to the University of Cincinnati Medical Center for treatment.

He was charged with attempted murder of a police officer, but Chief Jones said he expects additional charges.

Residents of the surrounding area had their electric shut off during the incident and were urged to stay indoors and away from windows. A command post was set up at Latonia Elementary and Chief Jones says Latonia residents were very cooperative during the standoff.

Copyright 2013 WXIX. All rights reserved.

http://www.kpho.com/story/24284006/latonia-swat-military-vet-taken-into-custody

[Tannerm]

If cops didn't think they were infantrymen and didn't try to play special forces on American citizens using tactics that we can't even use in war, violating rights that if a soldier used, he'd be sitting in Leavenworth, we'd not have this discussion.

Do you want to compare ROE's from what you are able to do, what cops are in the news doing every day to what the ROE is in Iraq and Afghanistan? Guess which one is more restrictive

Ok I'm intrigued now... What tactics are you talking about that are illegal in the military??? I was apart of a swat team for 2+ years so I'm curious. Frost serious man, get off the interwebz and DFWM and enjoy xmas. Ur jaded view of the badge is making u look loony man. Simmer!

[Forever_frost]

Ok I'm intrigued now... What tactics are you talking about that are illegal in the military??? I was apart of a swat team for 2+ years so I'm curious. Frost serious man, get off the interwebz and DFWM and enjoy xmas. Ur jaded view of the badge is making u look loony man. Simmer!

I'll answer and then I'll let this one die down.

Kicking in doors to a home without being 100% sure that you're at the right house for one. Shooting someone's pet in their own home for another, gunning down unarmed civilians in said wrong house for a third. Then there's the insane belief that police need fully automatic weapons and APC's or even should have them at all.

SWAT should be very rarely used and unless there is a risk of IMMEDIATE loss of life, cops should never draw on a citizen, especially if they are breaking no laws. Disarming a citizen who is carrying (lawfully) a long arm within the letter of the law and then charging him for rudely displaying a weapon? Every cop involved should have lost their jobs over that. You know what we did in Iraq when we saw a guy with a full auto AK walking around? We waved.

We crossed our T's and dotted our I's because court martial hearings are very bad things and that's during a war. We treated everyone with respect. We didn't gun down dogs in their yards because 'we felt threatened.'

DAmmit, it's not right that a populace should ever feel like this about police. I was raised where they were the good guys, where thinking that there could ever be a single cop that would drop a baggie of sheetrock in your car and then charge you for drugs and seize your property is just ..... I don't know.

I'll be honest with every one of you guys, a lot of this anger is disillusionment. I was going to be an officer until I started reading some of these things. I view the officer's badge as something that is sacred and should be without blemish and held to the highest of standards. Cops are still my role models, even after all of these years. Every story of that position being held by those who would abuse that power, that authority and that trust cuts me deeply. In some ways, it bothers me more than when the military does it.

Why? It's because soldiers fight wars. They engage the enemy face to face and you expect combat soldiers to let off steam and get into trouble. You can't be in a war for a decade and not think fucking with civilians is fun. When the enemy in a war zone is better protected by rules and punishments against those who violate those rules than those citizens are at home from their own public servants, that should never happen.

[talisman]

I'll answer and then I'll let this one die down.

Kicking in doors to a home without being 100% sure that you're at the right house for one. Shooting someone's pet in their own home for another, gunning down unarmed civilians in said wrong house for a third. Then there's the insane belief that police need fully automatic weapons and APC's or even should have them at all.

SWAT should be very rarely used and unless there is a risk of IMMEDIATE loss of life, cops should never draw on a citizen, especially if they are breaking no laws. Disarming a citizen who is carrying (lawfully) a long arm within the letter of the law and then charging him for rudely displaying a weapon? Every cop involved should have lost their jobs over that. You know what we did in Iraq when we saw a guy with a full auto AK walking around? We waved.

We crossed our T's and dotted our I's because court martial hearings are very bad things and that's during a war. We treated everyone with respect. We didn't gun down dogs in their yards because 'we felt threatened.'

DAmmit, it's not right that a populace should ever feel like this about police. I was raised where they were the good guys, where thinking that there could ever be a single cop that would drop a baggie of sheetrock in your car and then charge you for drugs and seize your property is just ..... I don't know.

I'll be honest with every one of you guys, a lot of this anger is disillusionment. I was going to be an officer until I started reading some of these things. I view the officer's badge as something that is sacred and should be without blemish and held to the highest of standards. Cops are still my role models, even after all of these years. Every story of that position being held by those who would abuse that power, that authority and that trust cuts me deeply. In some ways, it bothers me more than when the military does it.

Why? It's because soldiers fight wars. They engage the enemy face to face and you expect combat soldiers to let off steam and get into trouble. You can't be in a war for a decade and not think fucking with civilians is fun. When the enemy in a war zone is better protected by rules and punishments against those who violate those rules than those citizens are at home from their own public servants, that should never happen.

Frost, how long were you in Afghanistan for? Pardon me, but it sounds like you are parroting off quite an idealized version of what are ultimately unrealistic expectations. When you're a kid, things are black and white. When you grow up, you're supposed to figure out that nothing in this world is an absolute.