Boeing 777 crashes while landing at SFO

[likeitfast55]

According to NTSB lady: just heard the interview.

Cvr:
Cleared visual and acknowledged by crew
Configured for app. Flaps 30/ gear down
Vapp 137
Normal approach
No discussion of ac anomolies or concerns with approach
7 seconds prior a call to increase speed.
4 seconds prior stick shaker
Go around call 1.5 seconfs prior

Fdr: approach idle thrust
Air speed below "target airspeed"
"Throttles" advanced a few seconds prior to impact. Engines respond normally

That's the highlights from the ntsb lady. Sorry for spelling errors I was typing as she spoke.

well according to this very early assessment: Book closed- pilot error.
__________________

[quikag]

The NTSB is giving a press conference. Starting to sound like they were going too slow on approach. Also said that the Glide Scope at the airport was out of commission for maintenance but other equipment was online. I was wondering about that.

Only issue with being too slow on approach is the 777's auto throttles would have added power to regain speed. The plane was too low, not too slow.

[likeitfast55]

I believe we have the RR on the 200 Series and GE 90 on the 300 Series. GE's had a gearbox problem and we had either 6-8 a/c affected.

Gotcha----BTW I passed on the scarebus----going 767 International MIA.

[likeitfast55]

Only issue with being too slow on approach is the 777's auto throttles would have added power to regain speed. The plane was too low, not too slow.

Wrong and wrong

AT's inhibited below 100' also inhibited it will not protect ALPHA speed. Unless TOGO is initiated you are cooked. Manual input is required.

Also stick shaker disables AT and AP, again unless TOGA is initiated BEFORE stick shaker.

[quikag]

Wrong and wrong

AT's inhibited below 100' also inhibited it will not protect ALPHA speed. Unless TOGO is initiated you are cooked. Manual input is required.

Also stick shaker disables AT and AP, again unless TOGA is initiated BEFORE stick shaker.

Are you a Triple 7 Captain? My Dad retired early as a 76 ER Captain, so while he admits not having direct 777 experience, he knows more about aviation than most. Again, my Dad has a few theories and isn't claiming to be an SME, but ultimately it was an altitude issue not an airspeed issue.

The facts will clearly show the plane was too low, not too slow. Airspeed was effectively irrelevant anyway.

The plane got stick shaker because they got slow when they pulled the nose up. It was at that point the seawall sheared the tail off and prevented TOGA. That's too low.

[quikag]

Likeitfast55, it appears you're familiar with Airbus, not Boeing.

This is an Airbus system that is NOT on the 777:

From a pilot board my Dad is on:

Quote:
The 777 has autothrottle wake up, ie when the aircraft approaches a stall the power comes on automatically to almost full power. This gives pilots great confidence however autothrottle wake up is inhibited in FLCH.

Can someone who flies/flew 777 and FBW Airbus, an insight into the similarities/differences between this and 'Alpha Floor' would be appreciated...

For the 777 guys not familiar with Alpha Floor, a summary

Quote:
Alpha Floor is a low speed protection (in normal law) which is purely an autothrust mode. When activated, it provides TOGA thrust. As the aircraft decelerates into the alpha protection range, the Alpha Floor is activated, even if the autothrust is disengaged. Activation is roughly proportional to the rate of deceleration.

Alpha Floor is inhibited:
* below 100 feet radio Altitude,
* if autothrust unserviceable,
* following double engine failure on an A340 (or one engine out on the twins),
* following certain system/auto flight failures,
* above Mach 0.53.

[Couver]

likeitfast55 is a pilot for American... He might have a clue.. Just saying

**edit late to the thread.. Came home last week on a 767 from Miami

Carry on

[likeitfast55]

Are you a Triple 7 Captain? My Dad retired early as a 76 ER Captain, so while he admits not having direct 777 experience, he knows more about aviation than most. Again, my Dad has a few theories and isn't claiming to be an SME, but ultimately it was an altitude issue not an airspeed issue.

The facts will clearly show the plane was too low, not too slow. Airspeed was effectively irrelevant anyway.

The plane got stick shaker because they got slow when they pulled the nose up. It was at that point the seawall sheared the tail off and prevented TOGA. That's too low.

I did stay at Holiday Inn Express Last night!

Altitude and airspeed go hand in hand, at a height of 100" both are critical. Airspeed is NEVER irrelevant, most critically at low altitudes in landing config where max drag is prevalent. Airman ship 101.
Now lets discuss the "region of reverse command". Most commonly called "behind the power curve". To reverse or correct their situation that low and slow, would have taken "TOGA" power(Take off Go Around) power, maybe even more to reverse the sink they had going. According to the early NTSB reports, the crew did not add power to arrest the sink while airspeed bled off causing high ALPHA(angle of attack) or "nose up"for non pilots).
I do not know if the jet was coupled to a landing system. The ILS was notam out. Our 777's have Collins FMS's and will not "build" an approach out of thin air. Collins will give you a "disconnect" segment if inop ground nav is present.
You can manually build an approach with a 3 degree GS that the AP will couple to. Our op specs will not allow this for safety reasons.
It is still early, let the hard facts roll in before we armchair.

I am on the MD-80 now but did fly the 777 before we had massive furlough after 9-11. I just received my bid for the 767 and I am eagerly anticipating getting back in a Boeing!
Says a shit ton for an aircraft to sustain that much damage and virtually everyone walk away.

If it aint Boeing I ain't goin---- thats what the old-timers would say.

[Trip McNeely]

and prevented TOGA. That's too low.

Don't prevent the TOGA!
TOGA! TOGA! TOGA!

[likeitfast55]

Do not want to get into a "bigger dick" contest.

Most transport category aircraft have altitude inhibits to the auto throttle when not coupled, they were clearly NOT coupled due to the ILS being out of service. That is the point I am trying to make with you.
I have never stepped foot on a scarebus. BTW AP "wake up" is only effective in MACH cruise, not fully configured. There is another "speed" we set. That is Vref.
Alpha floor is only effective when the AP is on. 777 has a very sensitive AT clutch. The slightest pressure on the Thrust levers will disengage it.

Like I said, still early to armchair.

[quikag]

Okay, I will defer to you as I honestly don't know what the hell I'm talking about and the info I'm getting is 3rd or (4th hand) from my Dad and I'm paraphrasing some of it, so please don't quote my Dad if its wrong. He flew A-4's in the Marines for 12 years before going to Delta where he was for almost 20 years before early retiring to try to protect his pension right before the bankruptcy filing. Suffice to say, he got screwed hard.

[likeitfast55]

Tip of my hat to your dad for both his service and his dedication to aviation. Love flying with the salty guys.....
I am sitting at 25 with AA now, hope to retire soon. 9-11 and a divorce took a serious bite out of my plans......life meh..........

[quikag]

Tip of my hat to your dad for both his service and his dedication to aviation. Love flying with the salty guys.....
I am sitting at 25 with AA now, hope to retire soon. 9-11 and a divorce took a serious bite out of my plans......life meh..........

Best of luck! Life does get in the way sometimes and it's sad how the aviation industry has changed over the last 10-15 years. Not as great as it used to be, for sure.

[Captain Crawfish]

Pilots fucked it up because the slope was down. I'm sure they feel bad but you only do that once!!!

[68RR]

55

plane did what it was designed to do in that situ- gear tore out without affecting the integrity of the tanks and both engines sheared as designed...