anyone else sick of this crap?

[quikag]

Those defining marriage and living in ways which are not biblical are ultimately living in fear of judgment. This manifests as anger and intense effort to try to assimilate others around their cause for support.

Just skip this post if you don't like scripture, but those interested should quickly google:

1 John 4:16-18

We discussed these verses at Sunday School this past Sunday and it was fairly profound to me. Fear has to do with punishment. If there is no punishment, you should have no fear, right? It really gave me clarity about those living against God are always quick to get riled up and vehemently defend their viewpoints and positions. If they are wrong, they will have eternity to realize their error of trusting themselves over God and His word. That is not a pleasant thought.

So, I understand much more clearly now and it makes me sad for those people instead of wanting to laugh and ridicule them. I'm sure some of you will body slam this post, but I guess it just reinforces the point ultimately.

[BERNIE MOSFET]

Those defining marriage and living in ways which are not biblical are ultimately living in fear of judgment. This manifests as anger and intense effort to try to assimilate others around their cause for support.

Hopefully not a slam, but I don't agree. One doesn't fear judgment any more than one believes in judgment. You aren't necessarily wrong in cases of miscreant Christians unable to reconcile their appetites with what they're taught, but it's qualified.

I feel that morality based on punishment is coerced morality. Then it's Pascal's Wager and not an honest reckoning with a morality based on love for one another.

[quikag]

Hopefully not a slam, but I don't agree. One doesn't fear judgment any more than one believes in judgment. You aren't necessarily wrong in cases of miscreant Christians unable to reconcile their appetites with what they're taught, but it's qualified.

I feel that morality based on punishment is coerced morality. Then it's Pascal's Wager and not an honest reckoning with a morality based on love for one another.

The "fear of judgment" is subconscious/subliminal. Obviously, if one doesn't believe in God, then why would they fear God and/or his judgment? Yet, many living against God have a lot of anger and are very aggressive in defending their position. Why is that if they have no fear? What difference does it ultimately make for them if they have no fear of judgment?

Being a Christian should have nothing to do with coerced morality based on the fear of judgment. Believing that completely misses the whole point of being a Christian. The verses I referenced and those before and after illustrate that concept quite clearly. Your comments about the 'miscreant Christians' only illustrate the absolute fact that becoming a Christian doesn't automatically absolve you of your ability to continue to sin and have earthly desires. It's a daily battle for any Christian honest enough to admit it and just reinforces the point you can't do it alone and expect any measure of long-term success.

NOTE: Mods if you want to move this to the religion section, I would absolutely understand!!!

[krazy kris]

Isn't the main goal for MOST in life is to procreate. I could care less one way or the other if a person is ghey or straight as long as they aren't messing with me.

[BERNIE MOSFET]

The "fear of judgment" is subconscious/subliminal. Obviously, if one doesn't believe in God, then why would they fear God and/or his judgment? Yet, many living against God have a lot of anger and are very aggressive in defending their position. Why is that if they have no fear? What difference does it ultimately make for them if they have no fear of judgment?

This is an argument predicated on an axiom of a fear of judgment. It supposes that the fear is present whether we know it or not; that it's inherent to our being. This is an underpinning of Christianity, so I won't expect we'll necessarily find a common ground on this.

I think the perception of anger you ascribe is founded in truth, particularly with people who reject Christianity entirely. I don't know that it can be characterized as a result of this subliminal fear. Often enough, they simply feel misled, and interpret it as a betrayal of trust.

In helping a friend with his math homework, I exposed a different interpretation of some operation than what he had been taught. He expressed outrage and anger that he'd been misled his entire life. This was a trivial event, and it boiled down to simplicity in education. He'd learned the operation, but not the why behind it - and it wasn't what he'd thought all along.

When it comes to faith and religion, it's orders of magnitude more personal because the subject is quite often the core of one's beliefs. When someone comes across a different interpretation than what Christianity teaches and, in accepting the new one over the old, resentment can be harbored.

Why are so many outspoken? Is it so unlike when Saul's scales fell away from his eyes? Straightaway people want to share their new truth with others. Atheism is a growing demographic.

Being a Christian should have nothing to do with coerced morality based on the fear of judgment. Believing that completely misses the whole point of being a Christian. The verses I referenced and those before and after illustrate that concept quite clearly. Your comments about the 'miscreant Christians' only illustrate the absolute fact that becoming a Christian doesn't automatically absolve you of your ability to continue to sin and have earthly desires. It's a daily battle for any Christian honest enough to admit it and just reinforces the point you can't do it alone and expect any measure of long-term success.

I agree almost entirely with what you have here. It shouldn't, but ultimately non-Christians are often enough threatened with damnation.

[quikag]

This is an argument predicated on an axiom of a fear of judgment. It supposes that the fear is present whether we know it or not; that it's inherent to our being. This is an underpinning of Christianity, so I won't expect we'll necessarily find a common ground on this.

How is the fear of the unknown or judgment an underpinning of Christianity alone? I think it is inherent in human beings to wonder and fear things we do not fully understand even if we don't want to acknowledge it.

I think the perception of anger you ascribe is founded in truth, particularly with people who reject Christianity entirely. I don't know that it can be characterized as a result of this subliminal fear. Often enough, they simply feel misled, and interpret it as a betrayal of trust.

In helping a friend with his math homework, I exposed a different interpretation of some operation than what he had been taught. He expressed outrage and anger that he'd been misled his entire life. This was a trivial event, and it boiled down to simplicity in education. He'd learned the operation, but not the why behind it - and it wasn't what he'd thought all along.

When it comes to faith and religion, it's orders of magnitude more personal because the subject is quite often the core of one's beliefs. When someone comes across a different interpretation than what Christianity teaches and, in accepting the new one over the old, resentment can be harbored.

Why are so many outspoken? Is it so unlike when Saul's scales fell away from his eyes? Straightaway people want to share their new truth with others. Atheism is a growing demographic.

This is good stuff, but the only fatal flaw as I see it is the "truth" that other people believe is superior to the Bible and Christianity is founded in what? Truly, what tomb of knowledge, book, blog, or eloquent speech of a like-minded friend is superior to the Bible? Obviously, I am biased, but I just think it is incredibly prideful to presume one has some special knowledge and truth that is hidden from the "ignorant" Christians and that we've all been deceived by the Bible. But, I guess they can say the same about Christians, but on what basis? I'd like to read what book they rely on more than the Bible to see for myself.

I agree almost entirely with what you have here. It shouldn't, but ultimately non-Christians are often enough threatened with damnation.

I think it is sad when non-Christians are threatened with damnation by Christians or alleged Christians. That isn't exactly an effective way to evangelize and ramps up the rhetoric and vitriol unnecessarily. Ultimately 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 sums it up succintly in that some people just won't get it and ultimately they really shouldn't care if it is hogwash, right?

[BERNIE MOSFET]

How is the fear of the unknown or judgment an underpinning of Christianity alone? I think it is inherent in human beings to wonder and fear things we do not fully understand even if we don't want to acknowledge it.

Fear of complete cease of existence seems inherent, I'll give you that. Anyone who has honestly examined their mortality cannot walk away at ease with the nature of it. I think there's a distinction between fear, and fear of judgment.

This is good stuff, but the only fatal flaw as I see it is the "truth" that other people believe is superior to the Bible and Christianity is founded in what? Truly, what tomb of knowledge, book, blog, or eloquent speech of a like-minded friend is superior to the Bible? Obviously, I am biased, but I just think it is incredibly prideful to presume one has some special knowledge and truth that is hidden from the "ignorant" Christians and that we've all been deceived by the Bible. But, I guess they can say the same about Christians, but on what basis? I'd like to read what book they rely on more than the Bible to see for myself.

"Truth" is subjective here and I don't mean for it to be interpreted as absolute truth. North Koreans deified Kim Jong Il, and now Kim Jong Un. We'll both agree that their version of the truth is fallacious, but from a North Korean's perspective of "truth", we'd both be wrong.

There isn't one book that can refute the Bible. There are many that try; all kinds of literature available that try but, in the end, it's a question of faith. Someone who is not bound to one book has them all to draw upon. They make of it what they will.

I think it is sad when non-Christians are threatened with damnation by Christians or alleged Christians. That isn't exactly an effective way to evangelize and ramps up the rhetoric and vitriol unnecessarily. Ultimately 2 Corinthians 4:3-6 sums it up succintly in that some people just won't get it and ultimately they really shouldn't care if it is hogwash, right?

I think it is sad too, but I find it less a fault by Christians, and more an intrinsic part of humanity. How we partition our identities and beliefs divide us further when we compare how different we are. It's easy for differences to runaway into violence and hatred. Then it's hatred begets hatred, and so on.

I think your verse is spot on. If someone rejects the crux of Christianity, the promise of an eternal afterlife through grace, why would they be expected to abide Biblical teaching?

[MustangPoser]

I think your verse is spot on. If someone rejects the crux of Christianity, the promise of an eternal afterlife through grace, why would they be expected to abide Biblical teaching?

I'm not reading the verse, but I believe this relates to requiring religion to remain moral and do the right things?

You realize residents of some of the least religious developed countries in the world not only have happier lives, but that they also have a lower muder rate? The least religious countries are the least violent and safest.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark are all examples where less than 1 in 5 are religious, but they top the charts in overall happiness and low crime rates.

We don't require religion any longer. Our enforceable laws and internal moral compasses are now adequate.

[MustangPoser]

Also, if you any of you religious folks live long enough to the point where we are able to download our brains to computers, are you going to gamble your immortality for a chance that when you die it will be anything less than the darkness you experience between dreams?

If you did it would you exist both in heaven and virtually?

[BERNIE MOSFET]

I'm not reading the verse, but I believe this relates to requiring religion to remain moral and do the right things?

You realize residents of some of the least religious developed countries in the world not only have happier lives, but that they also have a lower muder rate? The least religious countries are the least violent and safest.

Sweden, Norway, Denmark are all examples where less than 1 in 5 are religious, but they top the charts in overall happiness and low crime rates.

We don't require religion any longer. Our enforceable laws and internal moral compasses are now adequate.

You mistake me. One needn't have faith to amicably converse with those who do.

[BradM]

Also, if you any of you religious folks live long enough to the point where we are able to download our brains to computers, are you going to gamble your immortality for a chance that when you die it will be anything less than the darkness you experience between dreams?

If you did it would you exist both in heaven and virtually?

JustinSN95?

[Vertnut]

Make it what you will, just like the press, but this is not a debate on religion. It's a "free speech" issue. Mr. Cathy's religion has nothing to do with this.

[MustangPoser]

justinsn95?

lol how did you know?

[BradM]

lol how did you know?

Just guess'n.

[10sec302]

This aint Talismans fault, he supports same sex marriage.