a ftp thread.

[dcs13]

Edit: You're the one who played the Afghanistan card. If you don't know about something, you probably shouldn't use it as an example. There's a reason I don't compare things to submarine reactors. I don't know dick about them

So you're telling me you guys had to stand there or take cover when an insurgent pointed a weapon at you in Afganistan ?

[Forever_frost]

So you're telling me you guys had to stand there or take cover when an insurgent pointed a weapon at you in Afganistan ?

No, we raised our weapon in response. However we couldn't fire unless fired upon. Hell, if fire came from a structure, you're no longer allowed to return fire. You have to leave. And you can't do night raids or kicking in doors without the permission of the local Imam and the villiage elders.

[dcs13]

If the guy wasn't in that apartment, it was the wrong door. Or is it still the right door if the guy isn't there? If someone's beating on my door at 1 am, I'm answering with a pistol. Should I be shot?

Obviously it ended up being the wrong apartment. But your post says they should look at the "numbers"..They didn't know EXACTLY what door he went in. so NUMBERS had nothing to do with what transpired next. What should they do ? Say, aw shucks he got away, let's go eat donuts ?.. Or should they knock on doors until they find the bad guy or a witness that could lead them to the murder suspect ?
As for being shot, it was a BAD DEAL. MULTIPLE events ended with the officer shooting a person pointing a weapon at him. He "shouldn't: have been shot. Woulda, coulda, shoulda comes into play on both sides here. In the end, you won't find CRIMINAL negligence on the cops part.

[Forever_frost]

http://www.captainsjournal.com/category/rules-of-engagement/

Stories of troops waiting for air support and being prevented from firing unless they are shot at first have been rippling through the military for months. Many soldiers in the field complain that the Taliban is keenly aware of these rules and has become expert at firing on U.S. positions and then melting back into the civilian population..

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/afghanistan/100707/petraeus-review-rules-engagement

[Forever_frost]

Obviously it ended up being the wrong apartment. But your post says they should look at the "numbers"..They didn't know EXACTLY what door he went in. so NUMBERS had nothing to do with what transpired next. What should they do ? Say, aw shucks he got away, let's go eat donuts ?.. Or should they knock on doors until they find the bad guy or a witness that could lead them to the murder suspect ?
As for being shot, it was a BAD DEAL. MULTIPLE events ended with the officer shooting a person pointing a weapon at him. He "shouldn't: have been shot. Woulda, coulda, shoulda comes into play on both sides here. In the end, you won't find CRIMINAL negligence on the cops part.

So they opened fire on a guy in his apartment who answered the door with a pistol. That's not disputed. They failed to identify and they shot an innocent man. They should have knocked on doors and identified themselves. Call in more squads and keep an eye on the building. If someone answers the door with a weapon, you tell them to put it down and then handle it. You do not open fire on an innocent. Rule 1. The officers involved should face prison time.

Again, are you disputing that if this had gone down with me in the cop's shoes that I would be in jail right now?

[dcs13]

No, we raised our weapon in response. However we couldn't fire unless fired upon. Hell, if fire came from a structure, you're no longer allowed to return fire. You have to leave. And you can't do night raids or kicking in doors without the permission of the local Imam and the villiage elders.

Well, I hope any of you boys back from the war that go into civilian law enforcement "adjust" to the rules here. Cause I'm gonna bet if you wait to be fired on stateside, you're a dead man...or you're a hell of a betting man that the banger shooting your way is a bad shot...

[Forever_frost]

This is what happens when you pull a trigger overseas:

When Waddell saw some civilians hoist the wounded insurgent onto a nearby tractor, the young Marine saw a tactical retreat. He ordered his snipers to fire at the tractor’s engine block, to disable it until a Marine foot patrol could arrive to detain the man.

What a lawyer later saw were civilians conducting a medical evacuation — and firing on them was a potential war crime.

Waddell ultimately ordered his snipers to cease fire after more civilians, including a child, gathered around the tractor.

In the end, the insurgent was found dead from his wounds. No civilians were injured.

Nevertheless, the incident made Waddell a target for months of investigations. His commander, Lt. Col. Seth Folsom, later said he acted “recklessly” and showed “poor judgment.” Although Waddell did not break any international laws of war, he violated the “tactical directive in effect at the time.”

The young officer was relieved from his job as company XO. Folsom later gave him a searing “unsatisfactory” on a fitness report, saying Waddell was “not recommended for promotion with his contemporaries.”

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/04/military-second-guessing-rules-of-engagement-sink-careers-042312w/

[Forever_frost]

Well, I hope any of you boys back from the war that go into civilian law enforcement "adjust" to the rules here. Cause I'm gonna bet if you wait to be fired on stateside, you're a dead man...or you're a hell of a betting man that the banger shooting your way is a bad shot...

You evidently haven't heard of cops and bad guys dumping entire magazines without hitting each other. Cops were 100% in the wrong here. They should be prosecuted and put in jail. Personal responsibility for their actions

[dcs13]

So they opened fire on a guy in his apartment who answered the door with a pistol. That's not disputed. They failed to identify and they shot an innocent man. They should have knocked on doors and identified themselves. Call in more squads and keep an eye on the building. If someone answers the door with a weapon, you tell them to put it down and then handle it. You do not open fire on an innocent. Rule 1. The officers involved should face prison time.

Again, are you disputing that if this had gone down with me in the cop's shoes that I would be in jail right now?

If the cops didn't identify themselves , they should have. The homeowner didn;t HAVE to open the door, and the homeowner COULD have asked whos there. Again...Could haves on both sides. NO REQUIREMENT for the police to identify, ALTHOUGH it would have helped. They weren;t serving a warrant or kicking the door. They knocked.
Yes they shot an "innocent" man. But the innocent man was a real threat. POINTING a firearm AT them.
It's different if YOU shot the guy. You're not a COP in UNIFORM. FLorida law PROHIBITS use of force against a person you believe to be an officer. Since they were standing there in UNIFORM, it's reasonable that the homeowner knew they were officers.
Again, I hate he got shot, but you're not gonna get to the level of NEGLIGENT homicide. Civil case is pretty much a slam dunk though...

[TEAMJACOB]

No, we raised our weapon in response. However we couldn't fire unless fired upon. Hell, if fire came from a structure, you're no longer allowed to return fire. You have to leave. And you can't do night raids or kicking in doors without the permission of the local Imam and the villiage elders.

dsc, frost is not exaggerating. the rules of engagement for our military of fucking stupid strict. my brother tells me about them and i just sit there, dumb founded with my jaw on the floor. its that absurd


edit: while i dont know that cops should necessarily wait to be fired upon before firing themselves, i do think if our military is force to extend this courtesy to our enemy, then it isnt too much to ask from our local leos.

[dcs13]

This is what happens when you pull a trigger overseas:

When Waddell saw some civilians hoist the wounded insurgent onto a nearby tractor, the young Marine saw a tactical retreat. He ordered his snipers to fire at the tractor’s engine block, to disable it until a Marine foot patrol could arrive to detain the man.

What a lawyer later saw were civilians conducting a medical evacuation — and firing on them was a potential war crime.

Waddell ultimately ordered his snipers to cease fire after more civilians, including a child, gathered around the tractor.

In the end, the insurgent was found dead from his wounds. No civilians were injured.

Nevertheless, the incident made Waddell a target for months of investigations. His commander, Lt. Col. Seth Folsom, later said he acted “recklessly” and showed “poor judgment.” Although Waddell did not break any international laws of war, he violated the “tactical directive in effect at the time.”

The young officer was relieved from his job as company XO. Folsom later gave him a searing “unsatisfactory” on a fitness report, saying Waddell was “not recommended for promotion with his contemporaries.”

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/0...reers-042312w/

NO that's what happens when you have LEADERS that fail to back up their men. That soldier made an appropriate tactical decision and his commanding officers ALLOWED him to be thrown under the bus...

[dcs13]

dsc, frost is not exaggerating. the rules of engagement for our military of fucking stupid strict. my brother tells me about them and i just sit there, dumb founded with my jaw on the floor. its that absurd

I believe it. That's why the border patrol has to run and take cover now when an active shooter engages them. The current REGIME in power is a total piece of shit and wants this country to fail.

[Forever_frost]

NO that's what happens when you have LEADERS that fail to back up their men. That soldier made an appropriate tactical decision and his commanding officers ALLOWED him to be thrown under the bus...

No, that is our ROE and how protected people who kill us are. Now, we're in this country with the Constitution and cops can gun you down, kill your animals, destroy your property and nothing happens.

http://www.paolobarnard.info/docs/ROE%20Card.pdf

An ROE card. You have to be 100% certain of your target. If we did this as part of our raids, you'd see the soldier before a court martial by teh end of the week.

[TEAMJACOB]

I believe it. That's why the border patrol has to run and take cover now when an active shooter engages them. The current REGIME in power is a total piece of shit and wants this country to fail.

i'd rather be rid of the bs rules of engagement vs asking our local pd to abide by the same as the military but they should pick one. either give this countries citizens the same respect we do our enemy, or let the mlitary do its thing to the best of its ability, how ever they see fit

[Forever_frost]

i'd rather be rid of the bs rules of engagement vs asking our local pd to abide by the same as the military but they should pick one. either give this countries citizens the same respect we do our enemy, or let the mlitary do its thing to the best of its ability, how ever they see fit

It really is this simple.