Starting to reload, a few specific questions...

[bottlerocket]

So my g/f's dad is really into guns and has a Dillon 550B press, really nice setup. He offered to let me reload there, I just need the dies and caliber conversion for my .40 S&W and .308 Win.

To start out with, I should have enough .308 brass (for now) and about half as much .40 as I want. What I still need are primers, bullets and powder. He was using something labeled Winchester 231. Seemed pretty dirty after shooting some .41 Mag reloads, so I was looking for a good alternative for my .40 and .308. Also what bullets to stay away from and what to look for. I have seen bulk bullets at the gun shows, but other than that, I dont know much.

Appreciate any advice you could offer!

[CJ]

So my g/f's dad is really into guns and has a Dillon 550B press, really nice setup. He offered to let me reload there, I just need the dies and caliber conversion for my .40 S&W and .308 Win.

To start out with, I should have enough .308 brass (for now) and about half as much .40 as I want. What I still need are primers, bullets and powder. He was using something labeled Winchester 231. Seemed pretty dirty after shooting some .41 Mag reloads, so I was looking for a good alternative for my .40 and .308. Also what bullets to stay away from and what to look for. I have seen bulk bullets at the gun shows, but other than that, I dont know much.

Appreciate any advice you could offer!

First of all, what .308 are you shooting? Some semi autos do not shoot .308 even though it says it on the side of the rifle. They shoot 7.62x51 NATO. That's very important.

For that RL550B you need a caliber conversion kit, a toolhead, and a powder die. For .308 you'll want to use the large primer tube and carry arm (should have this in the kit) and also you will need the large powder slide (same for .223 and most rifles). For projectiles look at wideners.com, and powdervalleyinc.com. Depending on what kind of rifle you're going to shoot with these rounds, I would go with military bulk for a semi auto battle rifle. If it's a hunting gun, I would load some V-Max hornady or equivalent.

[bottlerocket]

First of all, what .308 are you shooting? Some semi autos do not shoot .308 even though it says it on the side of the rifle. They shoot 7.62x51 NATO. That's very important.

For that RL550B you need a caliber conversion kit, a toolhead, and a powder die. For .308 you'll want to use the large primer tube and carry arm (should have this in the kit) and also you will need the large powder slide (same for .223 and most rifles). For projectiles look at wideners.com, and powdervalleyinc.com. Depending on what kind of rifle you're going to shoot with these rounds, I would go with military bulk for a semi auto battle rifle. If it's a hunting gun, I would load some V-Max hornady or equivalent.

I listed the types at the top of the thread, unless there are more than one .308 Winchester, in that case I am sorry and please direct me on how to find out what specific type it is. I am shooting it out of a Savage 111 bolt action rifle.

Any suggestions on the powder?

[CJ]

I listed the types at the top of the thread, unless there are more than one .308 Winchester, in that case I am sorry and please direct me on how to find out what specific type it is. I am shooting it out of a Savage 111 bolt action rifle.

Any suggestions on the powder?

Imr 4895 is a great powder for .308. A savage will be .308.

[Dacotua]

Burn rate on Imr 4895 is perfect for gas guns. That powder was designed for the M14.

For a bolt gun, I'd use varget or blc(2). Blc(2) goes through powder dropper easy and meters well being a ball powder.

There is a bunch of junk on the net on .308 vs 7.62x51

The military uses 7.62x51 and the commercial market uses .308. The dimensions of the brass is almost identical except the military brass is thicker. I have a m1a and Springfield Armory states you can fire .308 out of it. Ive reloaded for years and if you have a gun designed for 7.62 x 51 dont shoot bullets heavier than 168gr out of it and you will not have issues with it. I would also recommend shooting commercial brass over lakecity brass so that you dont put higher pressures on you gun via reloading. Military brass will require you to use less powder due to the thicker brass.

Got buy the Hornady 7th edition reloading book. The book has a service rifle charts fot the 7.62x51 and the .308 bolt gun charts.

Fyi theres a diff on .223 vs 5.56x45 also and that book covers the service rifle on that also.

Always use service rifle loads on gas guns (semis). Even the 30-06 has a service gun load in that book

[CJ]

Burn rate on Imr 4895 is perfect for gas guns. That powder was designed for the M14.

For a bolt gun, I'd use varget or blc(2). Blc(2) goes through powder dropper easy and meters well being a ball powder.

There is a bunch of junk on the net on .308 vs 7.62x51

The military uses 7.62x51 and the commercial market uses .308. The dimensions of the brass is almost identical except the military brass is thicker. I have a m1a and Springfield Armory states you can fire .308 out of it. Ive reloaded for years and if you have a gun designed for 7.62 x 51 dont shoot bullets heavier than 168gr out of it and you will not have issues with it. I would also recommend shooting commercial brass over lakecity brass so that you dont put higher pressures on you gun via reloading. Military brass will require you to use less powder due to the thicker brass.

Got buy the Hornady 7th edition reloading book. The book has a service rifle charts fot the 7.62x51 and the .308 bolt gun charts.

Fyi theres a diff on .223 vs 5.56x45 also and that book covers the service rifle on that also.

Always use service rifle loads on gas guns (semis). Even the 30-06 has a service gun load in that book

That's not the reason you avoid commercial brass in a 7.62 rifle. In a g3 for instance it could kill you. The thin cases tear very easily in semi autos. Ive seen FAL's tear cases, and a g3 at a rifle shoot in mckinney completely explode, turned the mag into a sphere. Due to the thinner cases commercial ammo expands far more and can frequently cause jams, especially in g3's and gals. the m1a is one of the only exceptions if firing lower weight bullets. And generally commercial .308 is hotter, one of the primary reasons to avoid it. On militaryfirearm forums there was a thread of chamber pressures between the two, and commercial was quite higher using the same tests, some commercial ammo was much hotter.

[ThreeFingerPete]

yikes!

[Dacotua]

If you look at the way they measure pressure on a 7.62x51 vs the .308 Win via a chart, its apples and oranges. That is, they are not measured in the same manner. SAAMI is measured at the neck and NATO is measured in the wide part of the chamber. This alone can account for a very significant difference, several tens of thousands of pounds, between the two. Measured similarly, the pressure of a 7.62 NATO round is almost identical to that of a .308 Win. round.

The problem with military style surplus weapons is that they are worn out. If you go fire a HK91 and its really putting the splines on the casing and the shells are black, you have a problem. Fact is many HK91's were jam-o-matics when they were first brought into the United States. I've seen thousands of rounds fired out of FALs using .308's (at machine gun shoots) and none of them have had any issues, so long as they were using bullets under 168 grain. Hence why I said, if you shoot a autoloader (gas gun), use the service loads for the commercial version. They are lighter than the commercial bolt gun version.

I've seen AR-15's, AK's, and 2x glocks blow up at ranges. You know what they all had in common? Those people all bought reloads at a gunshow. NEVER EVER SHOOT RELOADS OUT OF YOUR GUN UNLESS YOU GET THEM FROM A VERY TRUSTED SOURCE OR YOU LOAD THEM YOURSELF.

You just don't know if they person at the gunshow loaded brass thats been fired 10 times or so (Which you will ripped the head off the cartridge soon), or if they reloaded your .308 with H110 (Talk about a bomb), or if they put too much powder in the cartridge, or they used .311-.312 diameter bullets (which will dramatically raise your chamber pressure).

And if you reload, try not to use nickel plated brass. From my experience, they don't last long at all before they start cracking.

[CJ]

If you look at the way they measure pressure on a 7.62x51 vs the .308 Win via a chart, its apples and oranges. That is, they are not measured in the same manner. SAAMI is measured at the neck and NATO is measured in the wide part of the chamber. This alone can account for a very significant difference, several tens of thousands of pounds, between the two. Measured similarly, the pressure of a 7.62 NATO round is almost identical to that of a .308 Win. round.

The problem with military style surplus weapons is that they are worn out. If you go fire a HK91 and its really putting the splines on the casing and the shells are black, you have a problem. Fact is many HK91's were jam-o-matics when they were first brought into the United States. I've seen thousands of rounds fired out of FALs using .308's (at machine gun shoots) and none of them have had any issues, so long as they were using bullets under 168 grain. Hence why I said, if you shoot a autoloader (gas gun), use the service loads for the commercial version. They are lighter than the commercial bolt gun version.

I've seen AR-15's, AK's, and 2x glocks blow up at ranges. You know what they all had in common? Those people all bought reloads at a gunshow. NEVER EVER SHOOT RELOADS OUT OF YOUR GUN UNLESS YOU GET THEM FROM A VERY TRUSTED SOURCE OR YOU LOAD THEM YOURSELF.

You just don't know if they person at the gunshow loaded brass thats been fired 10 times or so (Which you will ripped the head off the cartridge soon), or if they reloaded your .308 with H110 (Talk about a bomb), or if they put too much powder in the cartridge, or they used .311-.312 diameter bullets (which will dramatically raise your chamber pressure).

And if you reload, try not to use nickel plated brass. From my experience, they don't last long at all before they start cracking.

I know the saami and NATO test differences, which is why I referenced a test from militaryfirearm.com which uses the exact same pressure scales.

flutes leave any case from a g3 dirty and imprinted. It's completely normal. I have brand new built hk's with new barrels. They use the flutes to extract and contract cases, which causes them to be dirty. You cannot fire commercial ammo out of them period, it will cause major problems. Fals and completely different guns, and g3's are not gas operated.

Commercial in a g3:

[Dacotua]

I know the saami and NATO test differences, which is why I referenced a test from militaryfirearm.com which uses the exact same pressure scales.

flutes leave any case from a g3 dirty and imprinted. It's completely normal. I have brand new built hk's with new barrels. They use the flutes to extract and contract cases, which causes them to be dirty. You cannot fire commercial ammo out of them period, it will cause major problems. Fals and completely different guns, and g3's are not gas operated.

Commercial in a g3:

HK's are Gas Operated. They use a delayed blow back system like handguns do. They use a cam system and a fluted barrel. The flutes on the barrel are meant to grab onto the brass delaying it from ejecting. If it wasn't for these features, a HK will cycle before the bullet exit the barrel. On all piston driven rifles with these pressure, they put the piston within 4" at the end of the barrel, therefore eliminating the gun pulling the brass out of battery before the bullet exits the barrel. HK's are VERY HARD ON BRASS. I recommend only shooting factory loads (not hunting loads as these are usually designed for bolt guns) out of them and not reload the brass from a Cetme series gun. (HK is a clone of a Cetme). OR you reload commercial brass from a .308 that was NOT shot out of a cetme style gun.

On new HK's, the flutes are pretty snug against the brass when you load it. Over time, these flutes wear, and the chamber grows in diameter. This is why when a Cetme style gun's brass is black, its time to think about a new barrel. Most HK's I've seen have been shot a ton.

7.62 x 51 and .308 Win are very similar in pressure. The only difference is the cases. The case on a 7.62 is SLIGHTLY thicker over a commercial case. If you load the same powder charge in a Nato case and a commercial case, the nato case will have more pressure. Think about it, your chamber and bolt is the only thing containing the pressure. (This is why out of battery ignitions are bad). Brass can't hold any pressure, and your chamber will regularly see 45,000 - 55,000 psi (depending on how hot you load it.) MOST Semi's are hard on brass, for example, a M1A can use the same brass about 5-6 times before you should throw it away. Where as a Bolt gun you can generally get 7-9 firings before the ring around the head thins enough that I don't trust it.

Now with that said. You can easily shoot .308 WIN loads out of a HK without issue, so long as you keep them under 168 grain bullet (Most people I know who reload for HK91's use 150 grain bullets), and junk the brass after you shoot them. (They pick up brass from other guns at the range). Always use the Service Rifle reload charts for your load selection as these are meant to be safe on the gas system of the guns. (No bent op rods, No ripping the rim off the cases on a HK gun (Or worst, pulling the shell out with it still buring). I recommend IMR-4895 on all gas guns (Semis). That powder was designed for the M14, and has proven safe for all semi-autos using a .308 WIN case.

Again most issues I've seen people post up or having a gun kaboom is a result of using BOLT GUN data, using wrong powder, and or buying reloads from someone they don't know.

[CJ]

The flutes have nothing to do with its operation or cycling, its simply a ancillary feature added for increased reliability. The cams are called rollers, that is the delay. Thats why they are called delayed roller blow back rifles. It is not gas operated seeing as there are non fluted variations - I own a g3 without a fluted chamber for example. The rifles are not gas operated in any way. I live and breathe these rifles. I have built several from scratch. I know them extremely well and I respectively completely disagree with you. I could send you to a G3 site and you could read thousands of posts relating to not shooting commercial ammo if you're interested. Using commercials rounds results in stuck and torn cases, which can cause an out of battery discharge from premature roller lockup on chambering. I've seen it happen in front of me. I've fixed rifles that had it happen, it does happen.

[Dacotua]

The flutes have nothing to do with its operation or cycling, its simply a ancillary feature added for increased reliability. The cams are called rollers, that is the delay. Thats why they are called delayed roller blow back rifles. It is not gas operated seeing as there are non fluted variations - I own a g3 without a fluted chamber for example. The rifles are not gas operated in any way. I live and breathe these rifles. I have built several from scratch. I know them extremely well and I respectively completely disagree with you. I could send you to a G3 site and you could read thousands of posts relating to not shooting commercial ammo if you're interested. Using commercials rounds results in stuck and torn cases, which can cause an out of battery discharge from premature roller lockup on chambering. I've seen it happen in front of me. I've fixed rifles that had it happen, it does happen.

I'm going to disagree with you. Just because someone has built something for years, doesn't make them a expert.

The flutes are specifically designed to slow the extraction of the shells. The brass expands into the flutes, grabbing them and allowing the gun to slow down. Look it up, even HK stated this back when they first imported the guns to the United States. Many people back in the day asked about the fluted chamber. The Cetme series does not have a way to lock forward per say like normal guns.

You have your opinion of the HK series guns, however I've never seen one explode due to commercial .308 Win ammo. Even the Select Fire G3's at machine gun shoots shoot well with .308 Win commercial ammunition. You just don't go out and buy Hunting Ammunition for the guns, or light mag rounds. Again even H&K back in the day stated it was fine to shoot commercial .308 rounds out of the gun so long as you followed their guidlines. (No hunting ammo.).

I trust the Professionals at H&K more than your advice (No offense). I do believe they know more about the Cetme system than you. If I recall correctly, they told a bunch of us if we reload, use a faster burning powder. The reason was so that the bullet would exit the gun before the gun starts extracting the shell while the pressures were high.

Like I said before, the ONLY guns I've ever seen screw up was with improper reloads.

As far as the Internet goes, I can show you many sites stating shooting commercial ammo out of a Cetme style gun is 100% ok. Most people I know with HK91 use the old Winchester White Box stuff. They loved it. I know most of them hate the Remington UMC stuff.

[CJ]

I'm going to disagree with you. Just because someone has built something for years, doesn't make them a expert.

The flutes are specifically designed to slow the extraction of the shells. The brass expands into the flutes, grabbing them and allowing the gun to slow down. Look it up, even HK stated this back when they first imported the guns to the United States. Many people back in the day asked about the fluted chamber. The Cetme series does not have a way to lock forward per say like normal guns.

You have your opinion of the HK series guns, however I've never seen one explode due to commercial .308 Win ammo. Even the Select Fire G3's at machine gun shoots shoot well with .308 Win commercial ammunition. You just don't go out and buy Hunting Ammunition for the guns, or light mag rounds. Again even H&K back in the day stated it was fine to shoot commercial .308 rounds out of the gun so long as you followed their guidlines. (No hunting ammo.).

I trust the Professionals at H&K more than your advice (No offense). I do believe they know more about the Cetme system than you. If I recall correctly, they told a bunch of us if we reload, use a faster burning powder. The reason was so that the bullet would exit the gun before the gun starts extracting the shell while the pressures were high.

Like I said before, the ONLY guns I've ever seen screw up was with improper reloads.

As far as the Internet goes, I can show you many sites stating shooting commercial ammo out of a Cetme style gun is 100% ok. Most people I know with HK91 use the old Winchester White Box stuff. They loved it. I know most of them hate the Remington UMC stuff.

Does not have a way to lock forward? The rollers lock into the trunion. I have a fluteless g3 that operates just fine, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense given your theory. My hk manual states in pg 13 2nd paragraph reads "the hk91 series of rifles is designed to operate on the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge." Next time there is a shoot, I invite you to fire this rifle and see first hand.