Trusts

[Grimpala]

So what's the current huh-bub about trusts and the possibility of them changing?

I've read a few different things, but thought I'd get the DFWM consensus.

[Chili]

So what's the current huh-bub about trusts and the possibility of them changing?

I've read a few different things, but thought I'd get the DFWM consensus.

If I read right I think the big thing is fingerprints and such for all members of the trust.

Edit.. Here: http://www.myguntrust.com/are-nfa-gu...liminated.html

[Grimpala]

That's what I've gathered. You will now have to fingerprint and provide a photo, but the CLEO signature has gone away completely from the individual and won't be required on a trust same as always.

So what's the draw to have a trust over individual ownership now?

[Craizie]

That's what I've gathered. You will now have to fingerprint and provide a photo, but the CLEO signature has gone away completely from the individual and won't be required on a trust same as always.

So what's the draw to have a trust over individual ownership now?

You can leave them with other members of the trust.

[Chili]

That's what I've gathered. You will now have to fingerprint and provide a photo, but the CLEO signature has gone away completely from the individual and won't be required on a trust same as always.

So what's the draw to have a trust over individual ownership now?

You can leave them with other members of the trust.

Yeah.. Also cuts down complications if / when you die.

From the link I posted above:

NFA firearms must be titled in the name of an individual or entity, much like other real property (land) and some types of personal property, such as cars, trucks, boats, and airplanes. If an NFA firearm is titled in the name of an individual, only that specific individual may possess it. One of the chief advantages of titling NFA firearms in the name of a trust, rather than in the name of an individual, is that more than one person may legally possess and use the trust property. Any person at least 18 years of age who can legally possess NFA firearms may be listed as a trustee of the NFA gun trust and, thereby, legally possess the trust property, which is usually the NFA firearms assigned to the trust.

For a married couple, suppose the husband owns a suppressor, which is legally registered with the ATF in his own name. The husband goes to work and leaves his suppressor at home. If the wife stays at home that day and could have access to the suppressor, she is committing a federal felony offense that carries a prison sentence of up to 10 years and/or a fine of up to $250,000. 26 U.S.C. §§ 5861, 5871; 18 U.S.C. § 3571(b). Further, the suppressor is subject to seizure and forfeiture. 26 U.S.C. § 5872. If convicted, the wife loses her right to own or possess any kind of firearms in the future. In addition, if the husband instead left the suppressor in the wife’s vehicle, the vehicle is subject to seizure and forfeiture. If the husband had simply registered the suppressor in the name of an NFA gun trust and listed both himself and his wife as trustees of the trust, this situation would have been prevented. Additionally, the couple could list other individuals, such as friends and family who are at least 18 years of age and who may legally possess firearms as trustees of the trust, if the individuals agreed to be listed as trustees.

Even if a person is single, it will still make sense to title NFA firearms in the name of a trust because of the built-in flexibility of being able to amend the trust throughout the person’s lifetime to add or remove additional trustees (persons allowed to use and possess the NFA firearms) and to identify beneficiaries (persons who may inherit the NFA firearms when the person dies) as the person’s life and roles evolve (i.e., husband, father, grandfather, etc.). If the person titles NFA firearms in his own name and then decides later to title the NFA firearms in the name of a trust, the person will end up paying the $200 transfer tax (or whatever the transfer tax amount is at that time) for each NFA firearm to be transferred to the trust. This short-term thinking (titling NFA firearms in the name of an individual) could end up costing the person a large sum of money down the road. Further, all property assigned to the NFA gun trust passes to the beneficiaries outside of probate.

[David]

Trusts allow you to have multiple people have access to the items and somewhat easier upon death for the family. After that, they don't do squat.

Even as an individual death isn't a problem if you do proper estate planning.

[Gtracer]

Dont forget the CLEO notification process prior to submission (Form 1 and 4):

Effective July 13, 2016, the final rule “Machineguns, Destructive Devices and Certain Other Firearms; Background Checks for Responsible Persons of a Trust or Legal Entity With Respect to Making or Transferring a Firearm” amends the regulations to eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by a CLEO and instead adds a CLEO notification requirement. Prior to the submission of the ATF Form 1 or ATF Form 4 to the Director, all applicants/transferees and responsible persons shall forward a completed copy of ATF Form 1 or Form 4, or a completed copy of Form 5320.23, respectively, to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the applicant or responsible person is located. The chief law enforcement officer is the local chief of police, county sheriff, head of the State police, State or local district attorney or prosecutor. If the applicant/transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a partnership, company, association, or corporation, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at its principal office or principal place of business; if the applicant/transferee is not a licensed manufacturer, importer, or dealer qualified under this part and is a trust, for purposes of this section, it is considered located at the primary location at which the firearm will be maintained.

[Grimpala]

So a trust is good, got it.

And now you don't have to ask for permission from the CLEO, you just have to notify them that you are purchasing/own an NFA item?

Seems as reasonable as a kick in the junk can be.

[Chili]

So a trust is good, got it.

And now you don't have to ask for permission from the CLEO, you just have to notify them that you are purchasing/own an NFA item?

Seems as reasonable as a kick in the junk can be.

Right..

[Gtracer]

Right..

Curious though, I wonder if the local LEO's will abuse this knowledge? Perhaps I am just paranoid or have too much foil on but I could see them making the rounds a couple of times a year to these individuals to make sure they do not have any harm planned with their weapons of mass destruction.

Hell, I know it might be apples to oranges but the ATF can visit and search FFL's at any given time kinda the same principal and I am curious if this is even plausible.


I would hate for them to stop by on a Friday when I have all of my blow up dolls over for a party.

[Chili]

Curious though, I wonder if the local LEO's will abuse this knowledge? Perhaps I am just paranoid or have too much foil on but I could see them making the rounds a couple of times a year to these individuals to make sure they do not have any harm planned with their weapons of mass destruction.

Hell, I know it might be apples to oranges but the ATF can visit and search FFL's at any given time kinda the same principal and I am curious if this is even plausible.


I would hate for them to stop by on a Friday when I have all of my blow up dolls over for a party.

Well, they would still have to follow the law, in theory..

The only way I could see it being an issue is if they were coming to 'take guns away'.. In that case it would be time to decide whether you are going to give up your rights, or fight for them..

[David]

Its no different than when an FFL notifies them of multiple firearms purchases. Most will probably throw them away. Or send them to your DAs office, they won't give a damn.

[Craizie]

Curious though, I wonder if the local LEO's will abuse this knowledge? Perhaps I am just paranoid or have too much foil on but I could see them making the rounds a couple of times a year to these individuals to make sure they do not have any harm planned with their weapons of mass destruction.

Hell, I know it might be apples to oranges but the ATF can visit and search FFL's at any given time kinda the same principal and I am curious if this is even plausible.


I would hate for them to stop by on a Friday when I have all of my blow up dolls over for a party.

It's my understanding that the ATF can visit individuals with tax stamps as well.

I've been wrong before, though.

[Musbrad2]

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask. What if you are on a trust, but live in another state? My best friend lives in Louisiana and added me to his newly created trust. All the forms haven't been approved yet, but just curious, will it pose a problem? Also, if he were to allow me to use it, would I need to alert the ATF that it will cross state lines into Texas?

[Gtracer]

Here's a question I've been meaning to ask. What if you are on a trust, but live in another state? My best friend lives in Louisiana and added me to his newly created trust. All the forms haven't been approved yet, but just curious, will it pose a problem? Also, if he were to allow me to use it, would I need to alert the ATF that it will cross state lines into Texas?

I know this is a MUST no matter what, you have to submit 5320.20 which is a request to transfer across state lines. Then you MUST have approval before transferring, the submission is not sufficient enough in itself.

And oh lord if the ATF can visit individuals with tax stamps; I have KY all over the couches and the sex swing setup in the kitchen...ugh, I need to clean