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Sig 938, 6lb single action trigger
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"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler -
I went with the Glock because of my familarity with them having owned many different models over the years. Never tried (or even held) a Shield but that would have been my second choice especially at that price point. I have tried the 938 though and didn't like the trigger. CJ, did you modify yours any? The one I tried had a real gritty and heavy trigger pull.Last edited by Jose; 06-26-2016, 02:36 PM.Comment
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Oh and how hard is it to swap in a new trigger on the Glock?Comment
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Jose,
Before you modify your stock trigger on your EDC, take a look at what Texas Law shield has to say about that. Some people could care less, but the legal world looks at modifications differently than you and I do.
RComment
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I have yet to see one taken apart and inspected that closely on any shooting. Yes if you told them you accidently discharged your weapon I could see it maybeeeeee being a issue. Maybe. That would also mean you told them you changed it out most likely.Originally posted by likeitfast55 View Post
With the Glocks the factory trigger is actually higher than what is quoted in the literature. The 3.5 disconnect is actually around 4.5 or 5lbs. There is still plenty of break on the trigger. Glock even sells a factory 3.5 and 4.5 for almost all of the bigger frames. The commercial version of many came with the 4.5 already in there. There are plenty of guns on the market with way lighter trigger pulls.
Could there be a possibility? Yeah I guess. One of the local instructors at a range started jumping on a guy the other day about this. I asked him to cite an actual case that this occurred in. He could not.
I think back in the day there may have been a couple of half cocked revolver negligent homicide cases but not anything about it being modified. Keep your finger off the trigger if you are not ready to stop the threat and you will be fine. The flipside to the liability part is does it make you more accurate in a panic situation? You probably have way more of a chance of pulling a shot wide and hitting someone than accidently squeezing one off.Whos your Daddy?
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like most triggers it takes some shooting to wear them in. It's dropped a few lbs since I bought it.Originally posted by Jose View Post"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
"A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser TytlerComment
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Not sure what Texas Law Shield has to say about it but I remember reading the following article by Massad Ayoob about modifying a pistols trigger to be lighter than factory. I still haven't taken the 43 to the range yet (probably this week) but I'll probably shoot a few hundred rounds through it, before really considering modifying the trigger, to see if it improves any. Might even try polishing the stock trigger to see how if it changes any.Originally posted by likeitfast55 View Post
The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device.
You try not to give weapons to your opponent. If I have an [opposing] attorney trying to nail my scalp to the wall, I’m not gonna give him the sound bite of “Ladies and gentlemen, you’re here to determine whether this man was reckless, and arrogant, and negligent. Ladies and gentlemen, he was so reckless, he deactivated the safety device on a lethal weapon. And he was so arrogant, he thought he knew more about this gun than the designer.” Tell me how you’re gonna get past that.
As far as the light trigger pull, your problem there, number one, is it has historically been linked to unintended discharges. So problem one, under stress, we SAY we’re gonna keep our finger off the trigger.
The trouble with that study done in Europe with trained emergency-response personnel, indicated that several times, the sensors that were put on the test gun picked up a finger touching it [the trigger], when the officers swore that during the high-stress exercise their finger had never entered the trigger guard. It apparently occurs unconsciously, as the mind says “Hey, if we have to shoot this thing, we want to verify we can reach the trigger.”
Second, you can go to court and say “I didn’t accidentally discharge the gun, I always keep my finger outside the trigger.” And they will then hit you with the bomb. “So, you want this jury to believe that you’re incapable of making a mistake? You’re the first perfect human being in two thousand and ten years. Is that what you’re telling this jury?” Now that is gonna be a pretty tough sell.
Where the accidental discharge theory comes, is they know you have a justifiable shooting, but you’ve got either the rare prosecutor that is politically driven and has some political hay to make by hanging you out to dry, or the much less-rare plaintiff’s lawyer who’s trying to sue you or your insurance company for something – mainly your insurance company.
They know there is no such thing as a justifiable accident. They know that in a state like Florida, or many other states now, even on the street, the so-called Castle Doctrine has been extended. Basically, particularly if you’re attacked in the home, the presumption is that you were right to shoot the intruder.
If you read the fine print, you’ll find all those laws are worded so they do not cover negligence. So all the other side has to come up with is say “Yeah, well, but he killed him by accident, and that’s not what this law is about. Our theory is, he accidentally shot him.” The light trigger lends itself to that. And you’ve basically just given them an argument they can use against you.
The prosecutor who is politically-motivated will use that argument, because he knows it’s a very tough sell to convince the jury that somebody like that, somebody like you, a productive member of society, with a clean criminal record has suddenly turned into Hannibal Lecter and decided to maliciously murder another human being for sport. They know it’s an easy, slam-dunk to convince the jury that somebody just like them got careless for just one second, and did something stupid.
So that becomes their theory of the case, and it’s a much easier sell. They don’t get bonus points for convicting you for murder instead of manslaughter. It’s really real simple, pass/fail. If you win the conviction, you done good. If the guy is acquitted, you’ve made an ass of yourself. So a lot of them will go for that low-hanging fruit, and that is where the false theory of “he shot him by accident” comes from. And that’s one of the reasons I don’t want to see a lighter-than factory spec trigger on a defensive firearm.
The other is in the civil case. The plaintiff’s lawyer is not looking for justice – they are looking for money. There are damn few people who are both so rich and so stupid, that if I won a civil judgement of a million dollars against them, there would be an unprotected, liquid million dollars that I could put my claws on and seize to satisfy the judgement.
Probably everybody reading your blog has a million dollar homeowner liability coverage. The insurance company has the money. And bingo, that’s where they go. If they make their theory that he shot them by accident, it’s homeowner negligence, they can get into the deep pockets of the insurance company. If they say, no, he deliberately, maliciously shot my client to watch him die, the attorney knows there’s not a homeowner’s policy in America that covers you for what’s called a willful tort, the deliberate act that harms another person.
So if they say you deliberately shot him, basically, they are closing off their access to where the money is. So that’s why it’s so attractive to them to say you shot him by accident with a hair-trigger gun. I do not like to leave blood like that in the water for the sharks.
Someone might argue that with a lighter trigger, I’m gonna hit better, so therefore it comes under your thing it’s safer for the bystanders. Actually, no, it fails to pass another legal test called the doctrine of competing harms. History tells us that light triggers are so often associated with accidental shooting tragedies, that trying to say “Well, I did it for safety,” just is not going to pass muster. It doesn’t pass the balance test.
So what I tell folks is, nothing lighter than “factory spec” in the trigger. Certainly make your trigger smooth, I’ve never seen anyone accused of having too-smooth a trigger pull, in 31 years as an expert witness, and 39 years of teaching this stuff, and 40 years of writing about it. But what I have seen again and again, is that the trigger is too light, and therefore reckless and negligent, and guilt-producing, and culpability-producing.
If I don’t like the disconnector safety on a Browning, I would get another gun, or have the one I have smoothed up so my problems with it are solved. If I don’t like the grip safety on a 1911, I’d buy a pistol that did not have a grip safety and be done with it. And the other modifications I think are going to be very defensible, and I my experience has been that they are very defensible.Comment
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Still an ass load of speculation on his part and he cites no court case. I am not saying there is not some remote random court cases out there. I am just saying a lot of experts are just speculating. Yes, don't put a 1LB trigger in there I agree. Shit I think some of the old cocked revolvers were just that. I could see a accidental discharge there but most guns now are not like that except 1911s and they have a safety. Still that safety would be dropped coming out of the holster. Most detectives can't even dissemble a damn gun much less identify a random part.Originally posted by Jose View Post
Realistically though just put some rounds on it. 500-1000 rounds would be just like polishing it and would improve your shooting also.Whos your Daddy?Comment
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Heres one for $499 with free shippingOriginally posted by War Machine View Post
with night sites for $499 and free shipping
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
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Been looking at these for awhile and finally picked one up this Saturday.
Got it from Academy here in mckinney and they price matched Grabagun(449.00). I was surprised. Looking for a holster now. Gonna break it in this coming weekend.Comment
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Seems like a good way for an AD right into your dick. A trigger safety only gun in your front pocket? Hell no.Originally posted by kingjason View PostComment
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Still waiting on my G23 to explode. They say its going to soon.WHComment
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You have to chamber a round and then lob it like a grenade. Your ass better be no where near it when it goes off.Originally posted by Gasser64 View PostComment
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Should have called me man, I've got a sale on them right now for $425 out the door. You can like my Facebook page First Response FirearmsOriginally posted by Rafa View Post"You don't so much drive it, more like poke it with a sharp stick and channel the fury when you piss it off."
FFL & LTC Instructor
http://firstresponsefirearms.com/
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