Finally Here 41f...

[David]

5320.23 I believe, for each trustee. I think it was somewhere in section V where the final ruling stuff was.

There's no CLEO signature for anyone. It's all notification based after 180days.

[LANTIRN]

There's no CLEO signature for anyone. It's all notification based after 180days.

But the cleo still must sign the notification before younsend that to the atf. They are still requiring signatures to get your sbit, for everyone, just calling by a different name.

See here, this is a good interpretation by a pro gun lawfirm.

http://blog.princelaw.com/

[David]

But the cleo still must sign the notification before younsend that to the atf. They are still requiring signatures to get your sbit, for everyone, just calling by a different name.

See here, this is a good interpretation by a pro gun lawfirm.
http://blog.princelaw.com/

I don't see where they say a CLEO sig is required. Looks like their argument is that one isn't required since they say you're being forced to disclose tax documents. To me the issue of disclosing tax documents is only an issue after approval and tax stamp placed on the form. If it's not approved its not a tax document one would be concerned about.

[LANTIRN]

I don't see where they say a CLEO sig is required. Looks like their argument is that one isn't required since they say you're being forced to disclose tax documents. To me the issue of disclosing tax documents is only an issue after approval and tax stamp placed on the form. If it's not approved its not a tax document one would be concerned about.

I read (I believe in the ATF rules under section 5) that the CLEO must sign each form 5320.23 for each trustee. The way I understood it, you send two copies to the CLEO for each individual, one for his records and one that comes back to you with his signature saying he was "notified", then you send that off to the ATF. It read to me like you cannot get the tax stamp without this signed notification for each person, and since there is no requirement for any CLEO in Texas to sign this stuff, they can sit on it or refuse to acknowledge they were notified. Or sit on it for two years if they want, or whatever. That is they way I interpreted what I read, anyways, and if I am right it is a CLEO signoff without calling it that to make us warm and fuzzy about that.

[David]

Page 5 of the ruling just says instead of a signature, the person submitting the application will notify the appropriate CLEO. Further into the procedures, it states that the person submitting the application will simply send a completed copy to the CLEO for notification that an application is being submitted.

ETA, the 5320.20 will be used for individuals in thee trust for background information and will be an attachment to the submitted form 1,4, etc. for each individual person in a trust or Corp. and also submitted to the CLEO in the notification.

No mention of required CLEO signatures.

[LANTIRN]

Page 5 of the ruling just says instead of a signature, the person submitting the application will notify the appropriate CLEO. Further into the procedures, it states that the person submitting the application will simply send a completed copy to the CLEO for notification that an application is being submitted.

A 5320.23 for is for a tax exempt firearm and has no bearing on most transfers most people will do.

ETA, the 5320.20 will be used for the other individuals in thee trust for background information. Right now, the forms are not corrected for the removal of the CLEO signature, but will be only notification based once into effect and will be an attachment to the submitted form 1,4, etc. for each individual person in a trust or Corp.

No mention of required CLEO signatures.

Page 212 of the ruling says you must notify the cleo before submitting to the ATF. On page 210 it says there will be a change on the paperwork on form 1, 4, and 5 from cleo certification to cleo notification, which seems to indicate you will need proof you noticied them, via their signature.


I had never heard of a form 5320.23 before and may be confused on that since my first time to hear of one was reading these rules. Like I said I am far from being a lawyer.

[David]

Page 212 of the ruling says you must notify the cleo before submitting to the ATF. On page 210 it says there will be a change on the paperwork on form 1, 4, and 5 from cleo certification to cleo notification, which seems to indicate you will need proof you noticied them, via their signature.


I had never heard of a form 5320.23 before and may be confused on that since my first time to hear of one was reading these rules. Like I said I am far from being a lawyer.

It'll be a notification more or less like current FFLs with multiple pistol purchases. Send it certified mail return receipt. What they choose to do after that is on them. They will not need to sign any form. Hell you could regular mail it.

I edited my other post to state the .23 will be an attachment for each person in the trust to go with the submitted form 4.

[LANTIRN]

It'll be a notification more or less like current FFLs with multiple pistol purchases. Send it certified mail return receipt. What they choose to do after that is on them. They will not need to sign any form. Hell you could regular mail it.

I edited my other post to state the .23 will be an attachment for each person in the trust to go with the submitted form 4.

Ok that is what I thought the .23s were for when I originally read it.

[David]

So it looks like the trust fills out the form 1 or 4 and then every person in the trust fills out a .23 to attach with the form 1 or 4 then submit in duplicate to the ATF. Copies of completed applications are sent to the CLEO, at some point, and then you eventually get approved. I'm also guessing that when you send a copy of your trust, everyone in the trust needs to be fingerprinted and photod or the entire application will be denied.

I'm curious if part of the new forms will be sworn to saying you notified the CLEO or if you need to provide a receipt of delivery from the PO.

[LANTIRN]

So it looks like the trust fills out the form 1 or 4 and then every person in the trust fills out a .23 to attach with the form 1 or 4 then submit in duplicate to the ATF. Copies of completed applications are sent to the CLEO, at some point, and then you eventually get approved. I'm also guessing that when you send a copy of your trust, everyone in the trust needs to be fingerprinted and photod or the entire application will be denied.

I'm curious if part of the new forms will be sworn to saying you notified the CLEO or if you need to provide a receipt of delivery from the PO.

Either page 210 or 212 said the cleo has to be notified before sending the package to the ATF, but they were not very clear on what notification meant. Like I said it reads to me like they want a signature as proof of notification but it wasn't clear. It did say the form 1, 4, and 5 will be changed from certification to notification, so we may have to wait to see the new forms before we know what they actually want. Too much to ask for the atf to outline a specific set of step by step instructions in the ruling, I suppose. No, you must read and interpret the legalesse.

[David]

There's to much talk about getting rid of the CLEO signature in the publishing to make it a requirement to sign something saying they've been notified. I'm guessing it'll be a sworn to affidavit type thing or provide mailing proof.

[LANTIRN]

There's to much talk about getting rid of the CLEO signature in the publishing to make it a requirement to sign something saying they've been notified. I'm guessing it'll be a sworn to affidavit type thing or provide mailing proof.

I really hope you are right but my gut instinct says the new notification is just wordplay to make us think we won something.

[David]

Looking at the break down of costs for the notification. ATF believes $.10 a page a $.49 to mail. That sure doesn't seem like they're factoring in any return mail costs for signed documents to be returned.

[LANTIRN]

Looking at the break down of costs for the notification. ATF believes $.10 a page a $.49 to mail. That sure doesn't seem like they're factoring in any return mail costs for signed documents to be returned.

If I am not mistaken I thought I read they think most trusts have 2 people to do all tbis shit for. Honestly I skimmed the cost assesment part because that is not what my concern is at the moment.

[David]

Finally Here 41f...

After some more reading it also seems that if no identifying information changes within a 24 month period of one transfer and another, you can submit documentation to by pass needing to resubmit fp cards and photos.

Looks like the documentation that you provide is the prior approved form from within the preceding 24 months.

So you don't need to do fp cards and photos of you buy through out the 24 months.