Military switching to HP ammo for pistols

[Jose]

Anybody else hear about this?

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/07/10/us-army-is-considering-hollow-point-bullets-to-go-with-new.html

[BP]

It's part of the XM17 project. They "may" switch to hollow point ammo with the new platform, if it ever gets adopted and funding. Pretty much everyone hates the M9 and I'm not sure why we gave an Italian company that contract in the first place.

[mustang_revival]

Hopefully this means cheap FMJ

[Moose242]

It's part of the XM17 project. They "may" switch to hollow point ammo with the new platform, if it ever gets adopted and funding. Pretty much everyone hates the M9 and I'm not sure why we gave an Italian company that contract in the first place.

It was between them and the Swiss/Germans.

The Colt SSP and Smith & Wesson 459M failed the test fucking miserably.
You know we use Belgian GPMGs, Squad Automatics and German rifles, SMGs, and so on right?

[soap]

Hopefully this means cheap FMJ

Hopefully.

[Denny]

Hopefully

[BlackGT]

Wishfully

[svauto-erotic855]

They need to switch to SSTs for rifle bullets while they are at it.

[Sgt Beavis]

For the longest time, the military taught soldiers to wound enemy combatants. The theory being that if you wound an enemy soldier you will actually take two out of the action because a 2nd soldier will come to his aid. That philosophy seems to be going out the window in light of combat in the Middle East. It's time to make sure the guy getting shot is actually dead.

[Chili]

I thought we used ball ammo because of Geneva Convention provisions (or something like that), is that not true? If it is, wouldn't this put us in violation of the Geneva Convention?

Edit - Did a quick google and see it was the Hague Peace Conferences:

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,

Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,

Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.

A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.

The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.

In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.

This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.

In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.

Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.

[Signatures]

Source:
The Hague Peace Conferences of 1899 and 1907
A Series of Lectures Delivered before the Johns Hopkins University in the Year 1908
By James Brown Scott
Technical delegate of the United States to the Second Peace Conference at the Hague
In two Volumes
Volume II - Documents
Baltimore, MD : The Johns Hopkins Press, 1909.

It does specify war between contracting parties, so I guess we are good to go with non-signing countries and terrorists.

[Dacotua]

United Stated didnt ratify that part

(IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations
This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned "soft-nosed" bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States.

[Chili]

United Stated didnt ratify that part

Interesting! My knowledge of it was purely anecdotal, so I wasn't sure on it either way. I think it was something a Drill Sergeant told us in Basic, but that was 22 years ago, so my memory is a bit fuzzy.

[BP]

It's true that the United States didn't ratify that portion but keep in mind the convention was in 1899. We were still sitting at the kids table.

[YALE]

The Hague treaty line of logic is extremely outdated, and at the time had more to do with forcing people to modernize their projectile choices, instead of letting every asshole with a giant paper patched cast bullet shoot their homemade loads in the army, which caused crazy injuries at the time. It made sense then. It doesn't make sense that we can't use modern hollow point ammunition in the M9 or AR/M4. They make those weapons far more effective, and in my opinion make them more ethical to shoot enemies with. We don't shoot deer with ball ammo, because it won't stop them and kill them humanely. We use well constructed hunting bullets, many of which these days are hollow points or ballistic tipped hollow points. There's no reason to not do that with military ammunition either. They're fight stoppers, not gruesome wounding instruments of mayhem and torture.