CHL Discussion thread

[Pokulski-Blatz]

my glock 30 cycled 0 out of 5 spent rounds, and fucked every piece of brass up.

Weird.

[Cobraman]

being older than all of you i wonder how ive gotten this far without assholes on the internet talking down to me at every chance they got for doing the exact same shit they have done. yippee-ki-yay motherfuckers!

god bless.

I don't necessarily see the merit in this...

Probies view of training- which I have supported throughout the thread has been backed up by numerous people in this thread: Anthonys, Ghosttx, Kbscobravert, phaux, and yz01 as well as the few people that have pm'd me (that don't want to be involved in the mudslinging)- would seem credible. I don't see how we are acting tacticool or how we don't know anything because of lack of experience when we have more than a few people that agree with our way of thinking. The whole tacticool thing was brought on by patrick and dochtr, not me or Ben, but still For some reason our opinion is still discounted by the "high and mighty".

The empty brass topic- even though I proved it worked-though maybe not for everyone- and that it wasn't actually harmful to your gun, somehow that it is still being said that my opinion is invalid? I think I have proved that it isn't so easily discounted, even if the no-it-all's say it is.

[BMCSean]

I don't necessarily see the merit in this...

Probies view of training- which I have supported throughout the thread has been backed up by numerous people in this thread: Anthonys, Ghosttx, Kbscobravert, phaux, and yz01 as well as the few people that have pm'd me (that don't want to be involved in the mudslinging)- would seem credible. I don't see how we are acting tacticool or how we don't know anything because of lack of experience when we have more than a few people that agree with our way of thinking. The whole tacticool thing was brought on by patrick and dochtr, not me or Ben, but still For some reason our opinion is still discounted by the "high and mighty".

The empty brass topic- even though I proved it worked-though maybe not for everyone- and that it wasn't actually harmful to your gun, somehow that it is still being said that my opinion is invalid? I think I have proved that it isn't so easily discounted, even if the no-it-all's say it is.

Know-it-all...

[Pokulski-Blatz]

Know-it-all...

Lol.

[CJ]

I think it's good that young guys are interested in shooting and the sport/hobby. That's always a good thing. I can't speak towards the theories around stress/adrenaline. I have had a gun pulled on me though, and at the time I was not carrying, but it did not end up in a battle. Many people in here have more experience than I do in pulling guns on people, etc. I've never pulled a gun on anyone I can recall. I think there's far too many variables in an individual to make a blanket prediction what will happen. However, my primary grievance with the tactical training I see is most of it is irrelevant and they are selling a product specifically targeted towards a certain demographic without the best intentions in mind. IE: teaching you how to fire while walking on a treadmill, or from a moving vehicle, etc. So I would be quite cautious about all the amazing tactical courses that are offered, as many of the people teaching them have the same experience level as you do and are just trying to make a living.

[ceyko]

I know a few dudes who do tactical shooting and/or practice it. However, *I* personally feel they look uncoordinated and are thinking about it too much - because they don't do it daily, weekly or even monthly. However, they believe this will be their default.

I practice maneuvers that I learned in the Army - which are far from tactical - but it's what I know and what I instinctively wanted to do while overseas getting shot at even without a gun. Interior shit - I do what feels right and that I'm comfortable doing.

However, like my friends that do it - more power to them. Hopefully their training pays off, but they are not going to know what does/does not work until under STRESS and doing it repetitively. Even then real life and training are not the same. I know some of these training sessions will attempt to amp up stress levels, but you know you'll be at fort living room in less than 4 hours.

Rambling a little, train, don't train...whatever.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

Probies view of training- which I have supported throughout the thread has been backed up by numerous people in this thread

Just being curious did they see the unedited first post and the three how to shot like an operator videos from Matt Graham being mentioned in the same breath as a CHL?

[AnthonyS]

Okay, let's summarize. Training is good, but it has to be the right kind of training and you have to do it OFTEN. No class environment really offers this. The repetition needed to become really good at something is ridiculous. 3,000 repetitions minimum for most anything to become 2nd nature. Most of us haven't put that number of rounds through any of our weapons. And we sure haven't done it drawing, aiming and shooting quickly to do maximum damage in least amount of time possible.

DOHCTR probably gets more trigger time than the rest of us, so his opinion carries a lot of weight for that reason.

Most police and civilian shoot outs prove that in the heat of the moment people suck at shooting. Overcoming that suckiness will require a level of mental fortitude and discipline most people simply do not possess. Only the right types of training and a whole lot of it can overcome this problem. I'm lucky because I keep my calm easier than most.

I'm going to give you the best advice I ever learned in the Navy when it comes to any SHTF type situation: SLOW is FAST! Yes take your time, think and then react. This is the reason most police / civilian shoot outs last so long and involve 90%+ misses, because no one is thinking! Everyone is moving way too fast and just over reacting. Believe it or not while the other guy is freaking out and popping off caps, you have time to AIM! Yes, but do you have the training and discipline to do it? I don't know. You have to find out for yourself. And you are only going to find out when something really bad happens. This is why I recommend lots of dry practice. It's nothing for me to do 100 rds dry practice at least once a week. That supplemented by some range time every 6 weeks or so, and I get 3,000 reps about every 25 weeks or twice a year..... not enough but it will have to do. Now when I get older and live in the country, I will be getting 3,000 rounds of practice in a month or two. Reloading isn't an option, it's a necessity. It's also why I limit myself to 9mm, 45, 223 and 308. I don't want a lot of odd calibers or weapons around and a lot of hodge podge components.

So unless you've practiced taking your safety off 3,000 plus times, chances are you may forget in the heat of the moment and fail to fire. If you fail to fire, the other guy might get lucky and get you first.

All the shooting from a moving car, shooting while walking, jogging, running, shooting while hanging upside down from a door jamb using a tacticool flashlight in the dark... it's all BS. You are way better off taking a proper stance or position, getting the proper grip, taking proper aim, and squeezing off rounds without jerking the weapon around, and that's the hard part. The manipulation of the trigger smoothly is tougher than the aiming, which is why dry practice is priceless.

If you want to see real proper training, there is free video series on Youtube of the M1 Garand shooting course from WWII. That is real shooting, and it really worked. Thanks to the M1 Garand and proper shooting the US won WWII. No one did their shooting while running or from moving Jeeps or while hanging out the side of airplanes. No one had flashlights stuck on their rifles either. The WWII guys got so many reps and go so good, they could shoot the heads off birds with their 30-06 Garands for extra food.

The best courses on shooting are taught in the military. I can thank the fact that my security detachment had a member of the Navy/Marine Corp shooting team on it. He taught me more in dry practice than I ever learned anywhere else. He basically taught me one on one the same thing from the WWII Garand videos.

Appleseed teaches the same thing in the Garand videos. You want a course, there is a course for you. You also get 500 to 1000 reps in one weekend. It's up to you to get the other 2500. The handgun equivalent doesn't really exist IMO.

[AnthonyS]

So honestly my view doesn't disagree with DOHCTR or agree with cobraman or probe. It falls somewhere in the middle. And in that middle is a whole lot of practice which almost no one gets outside of firearms instructors.

[2000 vert]

I feel any type of training is a positive. But in real life situations, where u need to pull your weapon, i dont think advanced tactical training will make that much of a difference. Im 40 years old and been shooting handguns since i was 12. I have a chl and carry daily. I think lots of trigger time and practice is the way to go. Trust me if you have never felt the adrenaline of having shots fired at you, you cant imagine the intensity and what it does to you. I was three feet away from the muzzle of the .45 that put two rounds through my leg. I barely heard a sound and felt nothing. Oh, and all the trainning in the world would not have helped me...he came through the door already drawn. I just feel that type of trainning is for offvensive situations when you know a threat is out there.

[Jose]

Read this before going to any class, it'll be the best info you get from a real-world stand point

Still digging through this post but stopped and read the link that Don posted and had to comment that it has some sound advice that I and everybody else should use. It reminded me of my encounter I had a few weeks ago when I stopped to visit my dad's grave.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

I need to stop being so GD friendly and simply say NO!

[GhostTX]

Still digging through this post but stopped and read the link that Don posted and had to comment that it has some sound advice that I and everybody else should use. It reminded me of my encounter I had a few weeks ago when I stopped to visit my dad's grave.



I need to stop being so GD friendly and simply say NO!

I have the same "weakness", too. I keep being the good Samaritan when that little voice in the back of my head is saying, "Tell him to stay the !@$#!@ back!"

[Jose]

Back on topic...

I hope and pray I never get in a situation that requires me to draw. I have three 1911's I rotate, they are just comfortable. I've carried my G22, my Witness and even a S&W5903, the 1911 just fits.

The only thing I hate is 7+1. That's not a lot of rounds for a high tension situation.

And for the record, I carry chambered, hammer down. Maybe I am stupid for it, but I feel I have less of a change of a ND with hammer down, than the safety accidentally getting clicked .5". When I practice my draws, thumb goes up to hammer and then I fire.

Still digging through this thread and don't know if anyone has responded to this. I carry a 1911 daily. Even sitting at my desk in my home office I'm usually strapped or it's within arms reach. Sure the 7+1 is a down side to carrying a 1911. I happen to have around 10 or so 8 round Wilson 47D's and whenever I go out I carry a spare magazine. My next step is to buy a couple of different brands of 10 round magazines to try them out for reliability.

Now discussing your method of carry with a round chambered but hammer down (condition two). I wouldn't advise it. The 1911 was designed to be carried safely with a round chambered, hammer back, and safety on (condition one). There are three different steps that need to happen before a 1911 will fire; the grip safety needs to be engaged, the safety needs to be disengaged, and the trigger depressed.

IMO, you either need to trust the safety or choose another gun to carry. It just seems that trying to engage the hammer with a live round under pressure is asking for trouble. You would probably be better off carrying chamber empty and racking a round in when you need to draw (Israeli draw) but I could never bring myself to practice that way.

What sort of holster do you use? Maybe a change of holsters will help with your concerns about carrying condition one? I know I felt the same way when I first started carrying a Glock. I was nervous carrying it with a round in the chamber because of my fear that it was not safe. I sometimes carried IWB without a holster which was why I feared carrying it with a round chambered. Next I moved up to a cheap nylon holster, still didn't feel safe. It wasn't till a bought a quality holster that I felt comfortable carrying my Glock loaded.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing some discussion on this. I love carrying my 1911 but sometimes feel under armed due to the round capacity and miss having a high capacity polymer gun (Glock or XD). But I love the weight, feel, and trigger of a 1911.

[AnthonyS]

Condition1 carry.... This is a training issue too. Keep your dick skinner off the damn trigger until you are ready to kill. This is the sole reason I never excuse an officer of the law that "accidentally" shot anyone. WTF was their finger on the trigger if the situation had not been fully assessed? Piss poor training.

A guy in the navy shot his self in the foot drawing his weapon. Another shot his self in the ass. A marine shot a hole in the gym wall. All 3 had their damn fingers on the trigger drawing.

You train condition1. If you see a situation, you draw and present your weapon. If after that you see an imminent threat you aim, and then put your finger on the trigger to shoot.

Remember the 3 rules of firearm safety?

1) treat all weapons as if they are loaded. So check and clear before turning them over, cleaning etc. this accounts for most gun "accidents."

2). Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire. This accounts for most other gun accidents.

3). Know your target and what is beyond it. This accounts for a low percentage of accidents, but it's a good way to shoot a friendly too.

At my house I've literally walked my wife through scenarios making sure no one ever accidentally shoots towards our kids rooms if someone breaks in.

Training, the right kind and lots of it is important.

I've been carrying condition1 for 13 yrs without issue, but I keep my finger off the trigger.

And let's say you carry condition 2 or 3. Now you have more to worry about and things to forget and ways to have a no fire. The condition 1 guy gets a free shot at you before you can respond. You don't get to call timeout to load your weapon or cock it.

Train, carry condition1 or don't carry. In condition2 or 3 you are just giving the bad guy more time to get the drop on you.

[Jose]

I mean, I get it. The problem I have with snap caps is that you have to pick them up/ they sometimes end up over the firing line. You always have brass with you at the range and you don't have to worry about keeping track of it. Another benefit is that empty brass tends to give you a wider range of malfunctions like stovepipes, etc



Should have multi-quoted but it is too late now

I don't know about you guys but when I've loaded snap caps in my gun, I've never racked the slide hard enough to cause it to fly out like ejecting brass after firing a live round. When I rack the slide, I usually have the ejection port angled upwards or slightly tilted to the right depending on how I grip the slide and I've always had it pop out and fall on the table almost directly below the gun. Maybe it's just me.