CHL Discussion thread

[Probie]

the kid likes to shoot, and obv. takes classes to get better at it. why are we busting his balls? does he dress all mall ninja'd up or something? if so, by all means let me know and i'll pile on as well.

god bless.

I'm wearing shorts, tennis shoes, and a bright ass blue t shirt. Have at it lol

[Moose242]

At least most of the other people in this thread can argue a topic without cheap jokes and avatar changes

Patrick's avatar changes are awesome.

[Pokulski-Blatz]

At least most of the other people in this thread can argue a topic without cheap jokes and avatar changes

Cheap jokes are the best kind. I am honestly hurt that you don't like my latest avatar, I made it with you in mind.

Honestly, I would be glad to argue this topic if I felt it wasn't going to fall on deaf ears. You are in that "I know better than you" stage of life. I don't see the value in debating the pitfalls and merits of training classes.

As I said earlier, your money would be much better spent on ammo to develop your own style. Watching videos and reading is fine to pick up on something you haven't thought about, but using a class as a replacement for trigger time is a massive mistake.

[Cobraman]

the kid likes to shoot, and obv. takes classes to get better at it. why are we busting his balls? does he dress all mall ninja'd up or something? if so, by all means let me know and i'll pile on as well.

god bless.

Best post in thread

[Moose242]

the kid likes to shoot, and obv. takes classes to get better at it. why are we busting his balls? does he dress all mall ninja'd up or something? if so, by all means let me know and i'll pile on as well.

god bless.

Yes.

[Pokulski-Blatz]

Yes.

I will confirm this yes. That dude is a comtac headset away from true mall ninja status.

[Probie]

Cheap jokes are the best kind. I am honestly hurt that you don't like my latest avatar, I made it with you in mind.

Honestly, I would be glad to argue this topic if I felt it wasn't going to fall on deaf ears. You are in that "I know better than you" stage of life. I don't see the value in debating the pitfalls and merits of training classes.

As I said earlier, your money would be much better spent on ammo to develop your own style. Watching videos and reading is fine to pick up on something you haven't thought about, but using a class as a replacement for trigger time is a massive mistake.

I'm not saying that classes are a replacement for practice. What do you do when you want to get better at something? You ask someone better/more experienced than you. Which is exactly what I did. I took a few classes. I found a few things that work for me that I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I now practice them to get better

[Probie]

I will confirm this yes. That dude is a comtac headset away from true mall ninja status.

Jokes on you! I have one in my closet

[John -- '02 HAWK]

Probie (and cobraman) do you feel your being picked on by everyone? Thats because your immaturity and your youth driven delusion of immortality are not letting you hear what experience and maturity is saying.

- The odds are that you will never get into a shooting, especially one outside of your home as civilian. Unless your placing yourself in harms way

- As a civilian you will never get into firefight that last more than 10secs. Video games, movies, tv, and firearms instructors on youtube have created a false vision of what you think a gunfight is.

- You will never get into firefight where you need to shoot multiple times through the windshield at a stationary target.

- You will never get into a firefight where you need to advance on a target.

- Since yall think DOHCTR's first link is garbage, go do some drills where you try to shoot a moving target while you are moving to cover. Your results will be just as poor as the officers, now factor in that the target(s) was shooting back, and the effects of the adrenaline in each others system.

[pr1042]

anyone interested in self defense should read up on tom givens and Rangemaster in Memphis, TN. Below is data up to 2011. I believe they are up to 65 incidents now. The 2 forfeits are those that did not carry their guns that day.

At present, we are at 63 student involved incidents. The current tally is 61 wins/ 0
losses/ 2 forfeits. Henceforth, I will simply refer to these as incidents.

I am fully aware that 63 incidents represents a statistically insignificant number. When
we see the same things occurring over and over again, however, I consider that a clue.

Of our 63 so far:

2 occurred at contact distance;

3 occurred at 5-7 yards;

3 occurred between 15 and 25 yards;

55 occurred at between 3 and 5 yards. (87%)

For purposes of discussion, I suggest the following definitions pertaining to distance:

0-2 meters/yards Extreme Close Quarters If two men are standing, facing each other,
and both outstretch their arms forward, they would touch or almost touch. You have not
been paying attention to your environment if the first time you are aware of the bad guy
is when he is within arm’s reach!

3-5 meters/yards Close Quarters This is essentially from just beyond two arms’ reach
to the length of a car. This is where 87% of our incidents occurred and I believe that
holds for legitimate civilian self- defense shootings in general. This is where the bulk of
civilian training/practice should occur.

5-7 meters/yards Open Quarters Less common, because you are leaving conversational
distance. To speak to someone, as in making a robbery demand, one will usually
be within one car length of the person spoken to. Conversational distances = confrontational
distances.

7-25 meters/yards Mid-Range More common than Extreme Close Quarters, but still
not typical. Should put some effort into training at this distance.

25 meters/yards and beyond Long Range Has not come up in 63 incidents. Longest
range in one of our incidents so far was 22 yards. The only scenario I can envision here
for a private citizen would be an active shooter across the food court at the mall. An accomplished
shooter should practice this some, for familiarization. Probably beyond the
scope for the typical CCW person.

I have started referring to distance on the training range in “car lengths” rather than in
yards or meters. I find the typical modern student has no concept of distance measured
in yards/meters, but all are familiar with a car length. The typical American sedan is 16
feet long,so one car length is about 5 yards. Two car lengths is 10 yards, 3 car lengths
is 15 yards, and so on. This seems to work well.

Given the distances broken down in our incidents, I believe the bulk of our practice
should be at one car length, or 3-5 meters/yards. One should have some familiarity with
contact distance shooting and with mid-range engagement, but since roughly 9 out of
10 of our incidents occurred at 3, 4, or 5 yards that is where we spend the bulk of our
training effort in Rangemaster courses.

[Cobraman]

Probie (and cobraman) do you feel your being picked on by everyone? Thats because your immaturity and your youth driven delusion of immortality are not letting you hear what experience and maturity is saying.

- The odds are that you will never get into a shooting, especially one outside of your home as civilian. Unless your placing yourself in harms way

- As a civilian you will never get into firefight that last more than 10secs. Video games, movies, tv, and firearms instructors on youtube have created a false vision of what you think a gunfight is.

- You will never get into firefight where you need to shoot multiple times through the windshield at a stationary target.

- You will never get into a firefight where you need to advance on a target.

- Since yall think DOHCTR's first link is garbage, go do some drills where you try to shoot a moving target while you are moving to cover. Your results will be just as poor as the officers, now factor in that the target(s) was shooting back, and the effects of the adrenaline in each others system.

Seeing as we both want to be Leo, it is very possible all of that could happen. I don't remember claiming to be proficient at anything. Prepare for the worst and expect the best. If you think our scores will be poor while moving and shooting, why wouldn't we work to improve them? I can't believe the standpoint of this board is that practice won't help you out at all. You guys can keep wasting ammo into paper, while some of us work to better ourselves.

[pr1042]

I took Tom's Combative Pistol 1 class earlier this year. Biggest takeaways were spending time/energy on practical skills

1) Have a gun
2) Practice getting it out quickly (he says fast and reliable presentation)
3) Get your first rounds on target


The majority of Tom's students involved in the incidents above are average citizens with basic training (most only have their 8 hour - Level 1/state carry permit class)

http://ballisticradio.com/2013/05/14/podcast-ballistic-radio-episode-10-may-12-2013/

[IHaveAMustang]

Back on topic...

I hope and pray I never get in a situation that requires me to draw. I have three 1911's I rotate, they are just comfortable. I've carried my G22, my Witness and even a S&W5903, the 1911 just fits.

The only thing I hate is 7+1. That's not a lot of rounds for a high tension situation.

And for the record, I carry chambered, hammer down. Maybe I am stupid for it, but I feel I have less of a change of a ND with hammer down, than the safety accidentally getting clicked .5". When I practice my draws, thumb goes up to hammer and then I fire.

[Probie]

Back on topic...

I hope and pray I never get in a situation that requires me to draw.

That.

[GhostTX]

The fact of the matter is that in an actual confrontation, your "training" won't do a damn thing. Obviously knowing how to shoot is important, but having some ultra-high-speed-ninja operator teach you how to kill some fools like John Woo won't do shit.

Take the money you would be spending on that yokel's class and get a gym membership. Better investment in yourself and can lead to some great self defense tactics if you opt to develop them.

Why? By your own admission training is pointless. Stupid logic, if you ask me. Training and the further practice establishes muscle memory and you end up reacting better without thinking. It takes up to 3,000 times to build up a muscle memory and do it "right" without thinking. This applies to ANYTHING...baseball, basketball, shooting, etc.

The problem is people (cops) who shoot, once/twice a year (seldom) don't ingrain anything, so when SHTF, there's nothing to fall back on to and perform lousy. Do you think professional ball players aren't feeling stress? That's why they train, so when under stress, you perform BETTER than some schmo that never trains.

So take your "pistol is worthless" mentality elsewhere because a rifle without training will yield the same results hit-wise during a hi-stress/SHTF encounter. I'll take some neckbeard training and practice what works for me so I'll be better prepared mentally and reaction-wise.