CHL Discussion thread

[Probie]

Should you take super operator mall ninja magpul high speed low drag classes?

[Moose242]

Pistol training is pointless.
But don't take my word for it:

http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm

"After studying more than 200 violent encounters, no connection whatsoever has been found between prowess on the range and effectiveness in combat. None. Hollywood taught you that the pistol-armed guy hitting the bull's-eye at 90 feet at the gun range is a champion badass, but science says that's bullshit.

It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the reports. An attempt was made to relate an officer's ability to strike a target in a combat situation to his range qualification scores. After making over 200 such comparisons, no firm conclusion was reached."

Basically, any training with a pistol means dick.

[Probie]

Pistol training is pointless.
But don't take my word for it:

http://www.virginiacops.org/articles/shooting/combat.htm

"After studying more than 200 violent encounters, no connection whatsoever has been found between prowess on the range and effectiveness in combat. None. Hollywood taught you that the pistol-armed guy hitting the bull's-eye at 90 feet at the gun range is a champion badass, but science says that's bullshit.

It has been assumed that if a man can hit a target at 50 yards he can certainly do the same at three feet. That assumption is not borne out by the reports. An attempt was made to relate an officer's ability to strike a target in a combat situation to his range qualification scores. After making over 200 such comparisons, no firm conclusion was reached."

Basically, any training with a pistol means dick.

So a person with zero pistol training will shoot the exact same as someone with thousands of rounds down range? Also, a cops range qual scores aren't exactly the best "go to" for determining how much that officer has trained. Shoot well once, forget about it the rest of the year till you have to qual again.

The info is also very dated, there have been many advances in not only technology but basic fundamentals as well.

[Moose242]

So a person with zero pistol training will shoot the exact same as someone with thousands of rounds down range? Also, a cops range qual scores aren't exactly the best "go to" for determining how much that officer has trained. Shoot well once, forget about it the rest of the year till you have to qual again.

The info is also very dated, there have been many advances in not only technology but basic fundamentals as well.

The fact of the matter is that in an actual confrontation, your "training" won't do a damn thing. Obviously knowing how to shoot is important, but having some ultra-high-speed-ninja operator teach you how to kill some fools like John Woo won't do shit.

Take the money you would be spending on that yokel's class and get a gym membership. Better investment in yourself and can lead to some great self defense tactics if you opt to develop them.

[Probie]

The fact of the matter is that in an actual confrontation, your "training" won't do a damn thing. Obviously knowing how to shoot is important, but having some ultra-high-speed-ninja operator teach you how to kill some fools like John Woo won't do shit.

Take the money you would be spending on that yokel's class and get a gym membership. Better investment in yourself and can lead to some great self defense tactics if you opt to develop them.

No roll here. It's not about super operator high speed room clearing shit. It's about gathering knowledge and techniques.

I really hate to use this argument. But why should SEAL's/Rangers/Green Berets/ etc continue training? They know how to shoot, they apparently won't gain anything from it. So why bother?

[Moose242]

No roll here. It's not about super operator high speed room clearing shit. It's about gathering knowledge and techniques.

I really hate to use this argument. But why should SEAL's/Rangers/Green Berets/ etc continue training? They know how to shoot, they apparently won't gain anything from it. So why bother?

Because they are an offensive fighting force that sets out to directly engage combatants. We are civilians who carry guns not because we want to, but because we have to.
I assure you that you can catch a seal off guard in a defensive situation and kill him just as you can any other unsuspecting person (RIP, Chris Kyle). If someone gets the drop on you and you have to pull your sidearm, you forget your training.

[CJ]

So a person with zero pistol training will shoot the exact same as someone with thousands of rounds down range? Also, a cops range qual scores aren't exactly the best "go to" for determining how much that officer has trained. Shoot well once, forget about it the rest of the year till you have to qual again.

The info is also very dated, there have been many advances in not only technology but basic fundamentals as well.

Technology? There's 2 things in a gun fight. A gun and a man. Those are still the same.

[Moose242]

I knew we touched on this before:

http://www.dfwmustangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52549

[Probie]

Because they are an offensive fighting force that sets out to directly engage combatants. We are civilians who carry guns not because we want to, but because we have to.
I assure you that you can catch a seal off guard in a defensive situation and kill him just as you can any other unsuspecting person (RIP, Chris Kyle). If someone gets the drop on you and you have to pull your sidearm, you forget your training.

http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/2013/02/08/confirmed-american-sniper-chris-kyle-killed-two-men-at-a-gas-station-in-2009/

[Cobraman]

I'm glad you posted a study from the 70's dochter, when pistol training was dick- here shoot with one hand from your hip and be accurate with it. That study hardly means anything, find something recent

[CJ]

I'm glad you posted a study from the 70's dochter, when pistol training was dick- here shoot with one hand from your hip and be accurate with it. That study hardly means anything, find something recent

Do you think fighting with pistols was invented in 2008 or something?

[Probie]

Clusterfuck thread is clusterfuck

[Moose242]

http://frontburner.dmagazine.com/201...ation-in-2009/

Ultimately his life was unfortunately cut short by a lunatic that no amount of preparedness could help.

I'm glad you posted a study from the 70's dochter, when pistol training was dick- here shoot with one hand from your hip and be accurate with it. That study hardly means anything, find something recent

Jeff Cooper was alive and well then. And lol @ assuming everything went down all Code Duello back in the day.

What fantastic advances in handgun tech have been made that have made concealed handgun carriers badass shooters?

[YALE]

Jeff Cooper said, "A pistol is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should've laid down in the first place."

[Moose242]

Jeff Cooper said, "A pistol is for fighting your way back to the rifle you never should've laid down in the first place."

I fucking love that quote.