The excrement just hit the fan, you have 5 minutes to grab your things and gtfo

[LANTIRN]

I guess you just didn't understand what you read. You do realize I was referring to the far future, right? Don't tell me you're another ruffdaddy who couldn't read to save his life.

As for the smell, I'm sure there is a way to deal with that as well. Even if there isn't, you could make the exhaust tubing so damn long (if you really wanted to) that any smell would be pretty far away from the area your shelter was in. Placing small pinholes far apart from each other, would mean that the gas would never be in sufficient quantity in one area, to generate a smell.

You could also bring in a lot of junk to set around, and on top of the shelter. Throw a lot of old propane empty propane tanks in the junk. Things breaking don't mean no survival. Lots of bottled water in case something happens to the well, candles, more than the necessary amount of food, etc etc. Nobody ever said it would be luxury and comfort. Get creative. Use your mind. Imagine things. But like I said last time, I'm probably talking to the wrong type of person. You certainly don't seem very creative.

Creativity also involves looking at all aspects of whatever you are considering to show any faults.

You still didn't answer my question. Regardless of what time frame you are talking about (near future, far, now, etc), you seemed to be of the mindset that we can exist peacefully without government yet now you are worried about civil unrest, looting, people stealing things, attacking you, etc if shtf and society and government collapsed. You can't have it both ways; either we need some minimal government to maintain order and security, or we don't and anarchy works fine. Which is it? And since in this thread you seem to be leaning to the need for government, I was simply asking what changed your mind.

[AnthonyS]

My experience is in PA. There is something like 1.5 million acres of hunting land in the state. I hoof it in a few miles to the top of some mountain and down the other side a bit, sit in a tree stand. Every year I'll see 5-10 hunters walk right through the area I'm scanning. Overall, I'll see 20 people or so on the trails and such on the way in/out of the hunting spots I use.

That's just hunters in an area that is otherwise wilderness. In the event that millions of people are on the move, nothing is going to be safe or private. Until people kill each other off, group up or something.

Sleep lightly....in the end I hope we can avoid all this crap. Not going to be pretty no matter how prepared, wealthy or whatever you are on this one.

That's PA and anything east of the Mississippi. It's folks out west who can actually bug out and disappear. Ever been to Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico or Nevada? Once you are out of the city you are in the middle of nowhere or close to it. That's why even though I have some land in East TX, I'm tempted to buy some in West TX (not the town). West TX is damn hard to live in, but you aren't going to find masses of looters or tons of neckbeards when if the shit does happen. Surviving out there takes on a whole new meaning.

[LANTIRN]

That's PA and anything east of the Mississippi. It's folks out west who can actually bug out and disappear. Ever been to Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico or Nevada? Once you are out of the city you are in the middle of nowhere or close to it. That's why even though I have some land in East TX, I'm tempted to buy some in West TX (not the town). West TX is damn hard to live in, but you aren't going to find masses of looters or tons of neckbeards when if the shit does happen. Surviving out there takes on a whole new meaning.

I used to live in West Texas. You are gravely mistaken if you think you won't find tons of neckbeards out there.

[Darren M]

Or land owners willing to put up with squatters. The further West you go, the harder everything is.

[FunFordCobra]

I promise to bring my above ground war to your sacred underground. There will be no black. There will be no white or brown. No rich or poor.. Only above vs below!

[Gasser64]

Creativity also involves looking at all aspects of whatever you are considering to show any faults.

You still didn't answer my question. Regardless of what time frame you are talking about (near future, far, now, etc), you seemed to be of the mindset that we can exist peacefully without government yet now you are worried about civil unrest, looting, people stealing things, attacking you, etc if shtf and society and government collapsed. You can't have it both ways; either we need some minimal government to maintain order and security, or we don't and anarchy works fine. Which is it? And since in this thread you seem to be leaning to the need for government, I was simply asking what changed your mind.

Nothing really changed my mind, but as I'm not clairvoyant, obviously I could be wrong. Anyone could be wrong about anything regarding the future. All I was doing was postulating that most likely, it will be beyond even something like star trek, if you just take a look at the technology we have now. As for government in this far future, I imagine local councils would probably be all that is needed, if even that. You're still thinking like we'll have all the same problems we face today, when we won't have any of them. No hunger, no pollution, no insustainability, no over population... just nothing. Why "attack people" when there's nothing for you to gain? Other than the fact that you had a psychological disorder, which was actually identified perfectly and treated perfectly when you were young. Again, you're really going to have to use your imagination, but at the same time if you just follow what they're working on now, to its logical conclusion, you don't even have to use your imagination.

At that level of technological advancement, there wouldn't be any shit to hit any fan. Neither the shit, nor the fan itself, could exist. If it appeared it would be quickly erased from existence.

[ceyko]

That's PA and anything east of the Mississippi. It's folks out west who can actually bug out and disappear. Ever been to Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico or Nevada? Once you are out of the city you are in the middle of nowhere or close to it. That's why even though I have some land in East TX, I'm tempted to buy some in West TX (not the town). West TX is damn hard to live in, but you aren't going to find masses of looters or tons of neckbeards when if the shit does happen. Surviving out there takes on a whole new meaning.

I have been to a few of those places and various deserts...etc. I can't argue that it would be better, but when everyone and their momma wants to be there - it's going to get interesting. Maybe all the others are right and you won't see a soul - but when people are even 2 miles away in those situations, that you don't trust, it's going to make it hard to sleep at night...etc.

End of the day, each person has to have their own plan that they believe in. If someone feels skipping around whistling Dixie will make it all good - more power to them.

I just do not believe there will be many safe places. I also think natural food sources are going to go QUICK. Already have problems with hunting and that's with a small portion of the population doing it and only doing certain times of year...etc..etc.

[Gasser64]

End of the day, each person has to have their own plan that they believe in. If someone feels skipping around whistling Dixie will make it all good - more power to them.

I just do not believe there will be many safe places. I also think natural food sources are going to go QUICK. Already have problems with hunting and that's with a small portion of the population doing it and only doing certain times of year...etc..etc.

Agree. However, the natural food sources may still be somewhat ok. A large portion of the population that would be out there looking to exploit these natural food sources, are going to keel over dead within the first week or two. Big cities would be death traps, and they're full of libbies who think their god the government is going to save them. They're all as good as dead. Then you've got the ones there who are a bit stronger, who will be warring over territory in the city. I agree that the natural food sources would be put under more strain, but at the same time with half, maybe even 3/4 of the population dead, that's a lot less people trying to make use of it.

[Jose]

So bringing up this thread again. For those of you that decide to bug in, what's a reasonable amount of ammo to stock per weapon? And for a small group, like two or three adults, what sort of weapons would you choose to choose?

[CJ]

I think 1000rds per weapon is a reasonable long term safe point.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

So bringing up this thread again. For those of you that decide to bug in, what's a reasonable amount of ammo to stock per weapon? And for a small group, like two or three adults, what sort of weapons would you choose to choose?

minimum would probably be the number of houses in your neighborhood x 50 and if your within 5 miles of a apartment building and/or a convenience/grocery store multiply that number by 10

[Ruffdaddy]

So bringing up this thread again. For those of you that decide to bug in, what's a reasonable amount of ammo to stock per weapon? And for a small group, like two or three adults, what sort of weapons would you choose to choose?

Id agree with 1K per weapon...my weapons of choice would be my AR, my pistols, my autoloader 12 gauge, and a 22 for small stuff. I think the autoloader would be very useful in the tight confined spaces that most neighborhoods have where i dont need to open up past 30 yds.

And dont forget the tannerite for special effects.

[LANTIRN]

At least 1000 rnds per weapon, with as much of it loaded in mags as possible. Does no use to you loose.

[inline 6]

I'm not a rich man so I keep my calibers simple. I'm approaching 3k of 5.56 that once stockpiled I will not touch. 2k of 9mm, and 500 rounds of 12g, 00 buck. I have other calibers but these are my bug in rounds. I'm not looking to just shoot every swinging dick I see if I ever have to bug in. I'm thinking that ammo will be a great bargaining tool as well and have a higher worth than just about anything else if tshtf.

[Ruffdaddy]

At least 1000 rnds per weapon, with as much of it loaded in mags as possible. Does no use to you loose.

If youre bugging in, you turn the kids into little reloading machines so its not entirely useless.

I'm not a rich man so I keep my calibers simple. I'm approaching 3k of 5.56 that once stockpiled I will not touch. 2k of 9mm, and 500 rounds of 12g, 00 buck. I have other calibers but these are my bug in rounds. I'm not looking to just shoot every swinging dick I see if I ever have to bug in. I'm thinking that ammo will be a great bargaining tool as well and have a higher worth than just about anything else if tshtf.

No hunting rounds for the 12ga? I keep a lot of 6 shot as well for rabbits, squirrels and such. Also ammo for flying things.