The excrement just hit the fan, you have 5 minutes to grab your things and gtfo

[Gasser64]

Especially with hoards of city folk fleeing through it

[Ruffdaddy]

Yeah, even the wilderness can get real crowded.

Exactly...especially when every armed neckbeard with a BoB thinks theyre just going to bug out and take camp on someones land...

[Gasser64]

That's why a lot of these "I'll be safe, I've got some land" guys are in for a rude awakening. Hypothetically.

Now if you built a big underground shelter on your land, with lots of supplies in it, and tall grass growing on the horizontal entrance door, I'd agree with you. You're probably safe cause nobody is going to find you.

[ceyko]

Exactly...especially when every armed neckbeard with a BoB thinks theyre just going to bug out and take camp on someones land...

My experience is in PA. There is something like 1.5 million acres of hunting land in the state. I hoof it in a few miles to the top of some mountain and down the other side a bit, sit in a tree stand. Every year I'll see 5-10 hunters walk right through the area I'm scanning. Overall, I'll see 20 people or so on the trails and such on the way in/out of the hunting spots I use.

That's just hunters in an area that is otherwise wilderness. In the event that millions of people are on the move, nothing is going to be safe or private. Until people kill each other off, group up or something.

Sleep lightly....in the end I hope we can avoid all this crap. Not going to be pretty no matter how prepared, wealthy or whatever you are on this one.

[Gasser64]

Not going to be pretty no matter how prepared, wealthy or whatever you are on this one.

In my scenario in my last post, I don't think you'd be bothered. If they can't find you, that's pretty much that. Leave your house that's on the land, looking long since looted and abandoned. They'll think nobody is on the land anywhere, except for them and whoever else may be coming along. The shelter being in the middle of some overgrown field, underground with various trees and bushes here and there, and that 4 foot tall grass (weeds) that has to be mowed with a brush hog. Nobody's gonna find that.

By the time you've exhausted your supplies and have to come out, the shit will be over with. Most of the lowlifes will have killed each other. The rest can be rounded up and hanged by the people who are working together to get back to normality, and who are forming the new government of the area.

[LANTIRN]

I'm thinking a stealth operation of sorts. If you have some land, then some kind of optical illusion, or natural barrier that hides your house. If you're in town, a basement you've constructed that is basically a big underground house, (like on that movie) but where the entrance is nearly impossible to find, and would be missed by pretty much everyone. And you've told no one but maybe like your wife or something. I'm of the opinion that you could actually hide from the SHTF scenario, and wait it out. Even if it took a couple years. Running from it, would probably just get you killed. I think you've got to hide from it.



A good start, but then you have the migrating vagrants coming along looking to strip your property and your house bare of anything they can use.

Granted, you've got your defenses, but the people are not going to stop coming, and they are many and you are few. They'll be arriving at various times, in various numbers.

That is way better than bugging out, but unfortunately you would have to still come out to kick/fight people off your land, fix things that break (water well, air system, etc), look for food or medicine that you need to replace, plus whatever else I didn't think of. Better scenario than wondering aimlessly, but still dangerous.

[Gasser64]

That is way better than bugging out, but unfortunately you would have to still come out to kick/fight people off your land, fix things that break (water well, air system, etc), look for food or medicine that you need to replace, plus whatever else I didn't think of. Better scenario than wondering aimlessly, but still dangerous.

I'd say not nearly as dangerous. Personally I'd put a couple spare well pumps and such inside my underground shelter. I don't think it would be very difficult at all to put aside 2 years of food and medicine inside the shelter. Of course it would be somewhat costly, but not very difficult to make sure you had everything. Why would have have to fight anyone, or kick anyone off your land, when you're underground and you've got all the food and water you need? And nobody can find you. When the shelter was being built, install the well in the bottom of it. 2 years of food isn't something hard to do. Hell technically if you used that mountain house (or whatever its called) food, you could stock enough for 20 years.

[LANTIRN]

I'd say not nearly as dangerous. Personally I'd put a couple spare well pumps and such inside my underground shelter. I don't think it would be very difficult at all to put aside 2 years of food and medicine inside the shelter. Of course it would be somewhat costly, but not very difficult to make sure you had everything. Why would have have to fight anyone, or kick anyone off your land, when you're underground and you've got all the food and water you need? And nobody can find you. When the shelter was being built, install the well in the bottom of it. 2 years of food isn't something hard to do. Hell technically if you used that mountain house (or whatever its called) food, you could stock enough for 20 years.

You still have to have power to run everything (solor or wind), and an air filtration/circulation system to supply air, both of which have to be connected to the surface. Shit breaks and needs maintenance, plus if you have this stuff sticking up (can't really camouflage a solar cell or windmill since one has to be tall and move, and one has to have access to light), it may draw attention. Once people are there looking at it or trying to use it it can either lead them to your shelter, or they just disconnect it and use it themselves which means you don't have power / air. So even if your stuff and your family are hidden and relatively safe, the property still needs to be defended. I don't know of any way to really hide a windmill or solar panel while letting them be effective. The windmill especially would draw attention. If people can find that and you let them hang out then they have time to find your entrance and they will have alot of time and probably some resources to get in eventually.

[Gasser64]

You still have to have power to run everything (solor or wind), and an air filtration/circulation system to supply air, both of which have to be connected to the surface. Shit breaks and needs maintenance, plus if you have this stuff sticking up (can't really camouflage a solar cell or windmill since one has to be tall and move, and one has to have access to light), it may draw attention. Once people are there looking at it or trying to use it it can either lead them to your shelter, or they just disconnect it and use it themselves which means you don't have power / air. So even if your stuff and your family are hidden and relatively safe, the property still needs to be defended. I don't know of any way to really hide a windmill or solar panel while letting them be effective. The windmill especially would draw attention. If people can find that and you let them hang out then they have time to find your entrance and they will have alot of time and probably some resources to get in eventually.

All good points, but I still have to say "not necessarily". I'm saying 2 years here, cause that would be the max time before new (local at least) governments were formed. Once there is a new government in place, things would of course be a lot safer. Than no government. It may be like the wild west, but even in the wild west mofos got hanged and sheriff's posse's would hunt bad people down, so they did have something to fear. So I'm saying 2 years before you could come out, and be reasonably safe, and be able to interact with other people.

That out of the way, if you put in propane generators, and a really big propane tank, you could easily last the necessary time. You also don't have to run electricity, necessarily. That well could have a hand pump, those work just fine. But even if you wanted an electric pump, you could also just ration your electricity, and only need to run the generator/s for a short period each day or every few days. LED lights would consume little power, and you could just have the bare minimum of lights running. A little sound insulation, being underground, and those generators already being fairly quiet, and nobody is ever going to hear them running.

Now you have exhaust, but that can be dealt with too. There are methods of hiding is in a rock pile, or in a thicket of trees and brush, or by other means, so that no one ever sees the exhaust. Just let the rock pile look like more overgrown crap that nobody cares about. Hell you could even just make the exhaust have to exit out of tiny pinholes, that are far apart, if you rigged it up right.

As for gas exchange so you can breathe, the same method used for the generator's exhaust, would work fine here as well. Yeah of course, one day you'll run out of fuel. But again by that time, you probably won't need to be down there anymore. So let them come live on your land. They're either going to die eventually, or move along, or they'll become part of the society that forms later on. But for that period of time, they won't be able to affect you, cause they'll never know you were there.

My only concern would be, the guys that built the place for you. There is a chance they could make it there. You might have to build it in stages, and tell each different contractor that he was doing it for a different reason. So that nobody really knows what it became, in the end.

[LANTIRN]

All good points, but I still have to say "not necessarily". I'm saying 2 years here, cause that would be the max time before new (local at least) governments were formed. Once there is a new government in place, things would of course be a lot safer. Than no government. It may be like the wild west, but even in the wild west mofos got hanged and sheriff's posse's would hunt bad people down, so they did have something to fear. So I'm saying 2 years before you could come out, and be reasonably safe, and be able to interact with other people.

That out of the way, if you put in propane generators, and a really big propane tank, you could easily last the necessary time. You also don't have to run electricity, necessarily. That well could have a hand pump, those work just fine. But even if you wanted an electric pump, you could also just ration your electricity, and only need to run the generator/s for a short period each day or every few days. LED lights would consume little power, and you could just have the bare minimum of lights running. A little sound insulation, being underground, and those generators already being fairly quiet, and nobody is ever going to hear them running.

Now you have exhaust, but that can be dealt with too. There are methods of hiding is in a rock pile, or in a thicket of trees and brush, or by other means, so that no one ever sees the exhaust. Just let the rock pile look like more overgrown crap that nobody cares about. Hell you could even just make the exhaust have to exit out of tiny pinholes, that are far apart, if you rigged it up right.

As for gas exchange so you can breathe, the same method used for the generator's exhaust, would work fine here as well. Yeah of course, one day you'll run out of fuel. But again by that time, you probably won't need to be down there anymore. So let them come live on your land. They're either going to die eventually, or move along, or they'll become part of the society that forms later on. But for that period of time, they won't be able to affect you, cause they'll never know you were there.

My only concern would be, the guys that built the place for you. There is a chance they could make it there. You might have to build it in stages, and tell each different contractor that he was doing it for a different reason. So that nobody really knows what it became, in the end.

With exhaust still comes smell and that is hard to cover up, plus no matter what method you use for lights, pumps, power, air, etc, things will break that you overlook. Murphy has a funny way of showing up, and even if all went 100% right there is still the cost issue, not to mention the psychological issue of being underground 2 or 3 years.

Now about the return of governments making it safer to come out. Just a few weeks ago you were talking about how we don't need a government and society would be fine, yet now you seem worried about the lack of one enough that hiding underground is an option. What happened?

[Ruffdaddy]

With exhaust still comes smell and that is hard to cover up, plus no matter what method you use for lights, pumps, power, air, etc, things will break that you overlook. Murphy has a funny way of showing up, and even if all went 100% right there is still the cost issue, not to mention the psychological issue of being underground 2 or 3 years.

Now about the return of governments making it safer to come out. Just a few weeks ago you were talking about how we don't need a government and society would be fine, yet now you seem worried about the lack of one enough that hiding underground is an option. What happened?

You do realize who youre talking to right...?

[LANTIRN]

You do realize who youre talking to right...?

I know. Just wait for it....

[matts5.0]

I know. Just wait for it....

Lmao, I was thinking the same thing. Don't encourage him.

[ceyko]

Just for the record, I'm staying above ground so I don't have to deal with septic underground.

[Gasser64]

I know. Just wait for it....

I guess you just didn't understand what you read. You do realize I was referring to the far future, right? Don't tell me you're another ruffdaddy who couldn't read to save his life.

As for the smell, I'm sure there is a way to deal with that as well. Even if there isn't, you could make the exhaust tubing so damn long (if you really wanted to) that any smell would be pretty far away from the area your shelter was in. Placing small pinholes far apart from each other, would mean that the gas would never be in sufficient quantity in one area, to generate a smell.

You could also bring in a lot of junk to set around, and on top of the shelter. Throw a lot of old propane empty propane tanks in the junk. Things breaking don't mean no survival. Lots of bottled water in case something happens to the well, candles, more than the necessary amount of food, etc etc. Nobody ever said it would be luxury and comfort. Get creative. Use your mind. Imagine things. But like I said last time, I'm probably talking to the wrong type of person. You certainly don't seem very creative.