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Eugene Stoner: Credit where credit is due

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  • Eugene Stoner: Credit where credit is due

    As much AR15 "bashing" as I do around here, I think this thread is appropriate to clarify my stance on the AR15/M16 rifle and its variants, so here goes.

    Eugene Stoner was a phenomenal weapons designer, one of many in a line of great small arms designers that have been from the United States. He took successful design elements from a number of weapons to create the AR10 which was scaled down to create the AR15:
    From the FAL it took the hinged receiver system allowing the rifle to be opened for cleaning
    The ejection port cover is similar to that found on the German World War II-era StG44
    The non-reciprocating charging handle was borrowed from an Uzi SMG (at least on earlier hook charging rifles)
    The bolt locking mechanism is similar to the M1941 Johnson rifle-



    The ejecting mechanism is similar to a Remington model 8's
    From the German FG42 and M1941 Johnson machine gun came the idea of straight-line stocks to reduce muzzle climb in fully automatic fire.
    The direct impingement system was borrowed from the French MAS series of semi-automatic rifles.

    Because of these factors, the AR-10/AR15's method of rotary bolt locking, straight-line recoil, and gas operation enhanced its inherent accuracy. Movement of the bolt carrier is in-line with the bore, greatly improving inherent accuracy, as well as keeping the rifle on target as the gun fired. Stoner's use of aluminum alloys and polymers combined with the aforementioned features borrowed from other designs culminated to create a new American rifle that was destined to hit the jungles of Vietnam. This new weapon was light, accurate, easy to field, ahead of its time, and loved by the soldiers who initially got their hands on it (if you have ever lugged around an m14 or m1A, you can see why a soldier would prefer an m16a1!).

    The truth is that if you want a 5.56/.223 semi-automatic (or selective fire for that matter) rifle in the United States, then an AR15/M16 is the best option for a number of reasons. They are readily available at any gun store, they have an aftermarket that is just unparalleled by any other center-fire rifle, and they are extremely cost effective, they can be configured any number of ways not limited to a range plinker or a long range precision rifle. For these reasons the AR15 is the current king here in the US. In the 80s you had the HK roller locked stuff everywhere and a ton of other options:
    A new AUG was $900
    A new FNC was $475
    Action Arms Galils were $800
    An HK93 was $550
    A Colt AR15 HBAR was $700
    A Beretta AR70 was $500
    A sig 550 was $1200

    Then the '89 ban let Colt be the only game in town if you wanted a "tactical" style 5.56 rifle. This ban is IMO one of the most horseshit laws in the name of free market capitalism; It allows American gun manufacturers to literally have no competition from foreign markets (at least until recently). I would liken this import ban to a ban on foreign sports cars from being brought into the country. That being said it is what it is, and we have to deal with it and I have digressed from my point.

    I have never said the AR15 is a bad rifle, it just doesn't do much for me anymore. I have probably built 10 or so over the years and I bought my first one in 2007 (that I still own and have shot the ever loving hell out of). The platform is versatile and really is the only 5.56 rifle I need, but not the only one I want. Some people are die hard AR15 folks, but it may well in my lifetime fade in popularity in favor of some new platform that we barely know about. Only time will tell, but until then the AR15 is king.

    CJ, this better not get rubbed in my face in the future.
    Originally posted by lincolnboy
    After watching Games of Thrones, makes me glad i was not born in those years.

  • #2
    What the fuck do you care? You can't own an M16/AR15 in Australia even if you wanted one. I fail to see the point in this post.
    I don't like Republicans, but I really FUCKING hate Democrats.


    Sex with an Asian woman is great, but 30 minutes later you're horny again.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by LANTIRN View Post
      What the fuck do you care? You can't own an M16/AR15 in Australia even if you wanted one. I fail to see the point in this post.
      There is a bunch of stuff I like that I cant own. Besides, all my firearms will be right here in the states should I feel the need to come back and go shoot stuff.
      Originally posted by lincolnboy
      After watching Games of Thrones, makes me glad i was not born in those years.

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      • #4
        So it went from a lengthy valediction of "...potentially forever..." to an "I'll stop by the country I am deserting at my earliest convenience..."
        Little bit overly dramatic and poser'ish, don't you think?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SS Junk View Post
          So it went from a lengthy valediction of "...potentially forever..." to an "I'll stop by the country I am deserting at my earliest convenience..."
          Little bit overly dramatic and poser'ish, don't you think?
          I have plenty of friends and family here, I am sure that I will visit them many times. Also if the country makes a comeback then I shall return!

          That being said if you wish to address my decision to relocate to Australia, do so in the thread in the back porch. If you wish to have a discussion about firearms, do so in here
          Originally posted by lincolnboy
          After watching Games of Thrones, makes me glad i was not born in those years.

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          • #6
            So basically everything you stated about leaving "... forever..." is nothing more than a misrepresentation. It could have been written how you just described, yet you'd it would appear your motive was nothing more than to garner attention. Got it. As far as the content of this thread, I read "I, I, me, me..." therefore I am keeping this about you.

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            • #7
              I dont think the ar15 will loose its popularity until the military goes with something else.

              The civilian market always wants what the military has.

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              • #8
                Good write up man, I think some people fail to see that the AR-15 platform wasn't just a random thrown together mess, but a 'best of' kinda deal. Also, a lot of the bad press during the initial fielding of the M-16 in Vietnam came from those that were upset the M-14 contract was cancelled, and felt the 5.56 was a worthless round. I feel that nothing short of a massive change in bullets, powder, or going caseless, or some kind of laser rifle, the AR series platforms will remain on the front lines for decades to come.

                -Eric

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                • #9
                  bump because informative
                  Originally posted by lincolnboy
                  After watching Games of Thrones, makes me glad i was not born in those years.

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                  • #10
                    This thread makes me want a Remington Model 8.

                    ZOMBIE REAGAN FOR PRESIDENT 2016!!! heh

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                    • #11
                      The M-16 being adopted was by pure chance and not really by design. The Reds caught us with our pants down when they came up with the AK and we were 20 years behind the curve when it came to having a light weight intermediate power select fire rifle.

                      If Bill Ruger had come out with the Mini 14 20 years earlier it would be then main rifle in the US inventory.
                      Magnus, I am your father. You need to ask your mother about a man named Calvin Klein.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by reo View Post
                        Good write up man, I think some people fail to see that the AR-15 platform wasn't just a random thrown together mess, but a 'best of' kinda deal. Also, a lot of the bad press during the initial fielding of the M-16 in Vietnam came from those that were upset the M-14 contract was cancelled, and felt the 5.56 was a worthless round. I feel that nothing short of a massive change in bullets, powder, or going caseless, or some kind of laser rifle, the AR series platforms will remain on the front lines for decades to come.

                        -Eric
                        And to add, the 223 was not intended to be the final caliber, it just became so and got lodged in the system the way a pubic hair gets stuck in a whore's grill.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bassics View Post
                          And to add, the 223 was not intended to be the final caliber, it just became so and got lodged in the system the way a pubic hair gets stuck in a whore's grill.
                          I haven't heard that before. I thought they went through lots of design and testing to create a cartridge to meet the military requirements. Otherwise they could have saved themselves the trouble and used the existing .222 Remington. I thought that the 5.56x45 NATO, .223 Rem, and .222 Rem Mag were all cartridges created during that testing.

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                          • #14
                            .223 Rem is just the "civilian" name given to what started as a military cartridge. Same as 7.62x51 and .308 Win...
                            "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson, 1776

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by reo View Post
                              Good write up man, I think some people fail to see that the AR-15 platform wasn't just a random thrown together mess, but a 'best of' kinda deal. Also, a lot of the bad press during the initial fielding of the M-16 in Vietnam came from those that were upset the M-14 contract was cancelled, and felt the 5.56 was a worthless round. I feel that nothing short of a massive change in bullets, powder, or going caseless, or some kind of laser rifle, the AR series platforms will remain on the front lines for decades to come.

                              -Eric
                              Wanting to put in a order for a laser rifle now.
                              Half of history is hiding the past.

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