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  • Army bans PMags

    Sounds like a contractor can't compete with the PMag and had a little political help...

    The Army has ordered that soldiers may use only government-issued magazines with their M4 carbines, a move that effectively bans one of the most dependable and widely used commercial-made magazines on today’s battlefield.

    The past decade of war has spawned a wave of innovation in the commercial soldier weapons and equipment market. As a result, trigger-pullers in the Army, Marines and various service special operations communities now go to war armed with commercially designed kit that’s been tested under the most extreme combat conditions.

    Near the top of such advancements is the PMAG polymer M4 magazine, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp. in 2007. Its rugged design has made it as one of the top performers in the small-arms accessory arena, according to combat veterans who credit the PMAG with drastically improving the reliability of the M4.

    Despite the success of the PMAG, Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command issued a “safety of use message” in April that placed it, and all other polymer magazines, on an unauthorized list.

    The message did not single out PMAGs, but instead authorizes only the use of Army-issued aluminum magazines. The message offers little explanation for the new policy except to state that “Units are only authorized to use the Army-authorized magazines listed in the technical manuals.” Nor does it say what Army units should now do with the millions of dollars’ worth of PMAGs they’ve purchased over the years.

    Magpul officials have been reluctant to comment on the issue. Robert Vidrine, vice president of marketing and sales, said the company found out about TACOM’s message only after it was released to the field.

    The decision has left combat troops puzzled, since the PMAG has an Army-approved national stock number, which allows units to order them through the Army supply system.

    “This just follows a long line of the Army, and military in general, not listening to the troops about equipment and weaponry,” said one Army infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan, who asked not to be identified.

    “The PMAG is a great product … lightweight and durable. I have seen numerous special ops teams from all services pass through here, and they all use PMAGs. Also, a large amount of Marine infantry here use PMAGS, including their Force Recon elements.”

    TACOM officials said the message was issued because of “numerous reports that Army units are using unauthorized magazines,” TACOM spokesman Eric Emerton said in a written response to questions from Military.com. Emerton added that only “authorized NSNs have ever been included in the technical manuals. Just because an item has an NSN, does not mean the Army is an authorized user.”

    This seems to be a complete policy reversal, since PMAGs are standard issue with the Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment and they have been routinely issued to infantry units before war-zone deployments.

    Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

    Militay.com asked TACOM officials if the Army had discovered any problems with PMAGs that would warrant the ban on their use. TACOM officials would not answer the question and instead passed it off to Program Executive Office Soldier on Thursday evening before the four-day Memorial Day weekend.


    TACOM’s message authorizes soldiers to use the Army’s improved magazine, which PEO Soldier developed after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a 2007 reliability test. The “dust test” revealed that 27 percent of the M4’s stoppages were magazine related.

    The improved magazine uses a redesigned “follower,” the part that sits on the magazine’s internal spring and feeds the rounds into the M4’s upper receiver. The new tan-colored follower features an extended rear leg and modified bullet protrusion for improved round stacking and orientation. The self-leveling/anti-tilt follower reduces the risk of magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older magazine variants, PEO Soldier officials maintain. Soldiers are also authorized to use Army magazines with the older, green follower until they are all replaced, the message states.

    Military.com asked the Army if the improved magazine can outperform the PMAG, but a response wasn’t received by press time.

    The same infantryman serving in Southwest Afghanistan had this to say about the new and improved magazine:

    “Like any magazine, they work great when they are brand new and haven’t been drug through the dirt and mud. I haven’t noticed much of a difference between these tan followers and the older green ones. After some time training up for the 'Stan, the same issues started to occur: double feeds, rounds not feeding correctly so on and so on. While it seems to occur about half as often, it’s still not a great solution.

    “The magazines still get bent at the opening and are still prone to getting crushed in the middle. I haven’t seen any issues like this with the PMAG due to the polymer casing. I have seen an empty PMAG get run over by a MaxPro [vehicle] and operated flawlessly later that week when we tested it at the range. Last time I saw this happen to a standard issue magazine, it was scrap metal after that.”
    The Army has effectively banned one of the most dependable and widely used commercial-made magazines on today’s battlefield.
    "Self-government won't work without self-discipline." - Paul Harvey

  • #2
    I think it's a better fit in the armory, but it was already posted in the political forum and there's been a good bit of discussion.

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/05/25/in-reversal-army-bans-high-performance-rifle-mags.html?ESRC=eb.nl
    Originally posted by Broncojohnny
    HOORAY ME and FUCK YOU!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Nash B. View Post
      I think it's a better fit in the armory, but it was already posted in the political forum and there's been a good bit of discussion.

      http://www.dfwmustangs.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=30242
      Dah...didn't even think to search there.
      "Self-government won't work without self-discipline." - Paul Harvey

      Comment


      • #4
        Too bad the military cant surplus anything or there would be a huge stockpile of cheap PMags to be had. They'll probably be scrapped

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bottlerocket View Post
          Too bad the military cant surplus anything or there would be a huge stockpile of cheap PMags to be had. They'll probably be scrapped
          Some GIs will sneak them out. You see reappropriated govt items at gun shows all the time.

          Comment


          • #6
            This is a repost, I feel like I'm in a time warp.
            "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
            "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by David View Post
              Some GIs will sneak them out. You see reappropriated govt items at gun shows all the time.
              Too bad we don't have any infantry units stationed here, just intel. Otherwise I'd go "borrow" some from them

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by bottlerocket View Post
                Too bad we don't have any infantry units stationed here, just intel. Otherwise I'd go "borrow" some from them
                We're close enough to Hood and Sill.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why would they ban the best mags out there? Do they want our troops to fail?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by David View Post
                    We're close enough to Hood and Sill.
                    <--- In Pensacola

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by wickedblkgt View Post
                      Why would they ban the best mags out there?
                      To my knowledge, the HK magazines are still allowed.
                      Originally posted by lincolnboy
                      After watching Games of Thrones, makes me glad i was not born in those years.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DOHCTR View Post
                        To my knowledge, the HK magazines are still allowed.
                        ..they see me trollin'
                        "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                        "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DOHCTR View Post
                          To my knowledge, the HK magazines are still allowed.
                          Well played

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Saw this on Military.com this morning.

                            Army Now Says No Ban on Rifle Magazines

                            Jun 07, 2012

                            Military.com| by Matthew Cox
                            2
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                            M4 PMAGs

                            The Pentagon has clarified the Army’s stance on a recent safety message that effectively banned a certain high-performance, commercial M4 magazine, which means soldiers can keep using their PMAGs.

                            The confusion began when Army officials from the TACOM Life Cycle Management Command issued a message in April, declaring that the only government-issued aluminum magazines were authorized for use in the M4 and M16 rifles.

                            TACOM officials released the message to address reports of Army units using “unauthorized” commercial, polymer magazines such as the popular PMAG, introduced by Magpul Industries Corp., in 2007. The decision left combat troops puzzled, since the PMAG has demonstrated its extreme reliability in combat and has an Army-approved national stock number, which allows units to order them through the Army supply system.

                            Army officials acknowledged June 6 that TACOM’s message was poorly written and not intended as a directive on the use of PMAGs. Matthew Bourke, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon responding to questions from Mililtary.com, said the message should have included guidance that the final decision rests with commanders in the field.

                            “At best, the message is incomplete; at worst the message allows soldiers to jump to the wrong conclusions,” Bourke said. “Maintenance Information Messages [from TACOM] are permissive. They are not an order. They are not a directive. All content and direction in those messages are optional for the recipient.”

                            It’s still unclear why TACOM issued the message at this time, but sources say it might have something to do with the $10.7 million contract TACOM Rock Island awarded to Brownells Inc. in 2009 to produce 1.4 million improved magazines by January 2010.

                            Program Executive Office Soldier set out to develop the improved magazine after the M4 finished last against three other carbines in a 2007 reliability test. The “dust test” revealed that 27 percent of the M4’s stoppages were magazine related.

                            The improved magazine uses a redesigned “follower,” the part that sits on the magazine’s internal spring and feeds the rounds into the M4’s upper receiver. The new tan-colored follower features an extended rear leg and modified bullet protrusion for improved round stacking and orientation. The self-leveling/anti-tilt follower reduces the risk of magazine-related stoppages by more than 50 percent compared to the older magazine variants, PEO Soldier officials maintain.

                            In late May, Military.com asked PEO Soldier if weapons officials had tested to see how the improved magazine performs against the PMAG. The command responded through Army public affairs that weapons officials had conducted “limited side-by-side testing and found that no commercial magazine was superior to the improved magazine,” Bourke said.

                            By contrast, PMAGs have developed a word-of-mouth reputation for being extremely reliable as well as durable. Special operations units such as Army’s 75th Ranger Regiment issue PMAGs as do many infantry units before war-zone deployments.

                            Soldiers from B Troop, 3rd Squadron, 61st Cavalry Regiment, had been issued PMAGs before deploying to Afghanistan in 2009. On Oct. 3 of that year, they fought off a bold enemy attack on Combat Outpost Keating that lasted for more than six hours and left eight Americans dead. Some soldiers fired up to 40 PMAGs from their M4s without a single stoppage.

                            Army officials maintain that TACOM’s message was intended to make soldiers aware that not all commercial magazines have gone through the same testing as the improved magazine, but concede that there are exceptions.

                            “The main message we want to get out is – although the Army does support and is confident in the improved, tan-follower magazine – we don’t want soldiers to fear punishment for using PMAGs,” Bourke said.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              our Government sucks!!!! Its always about money and who is going to be richer. Makes me sick.

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