Beretta ARX-160 coming 2012

[CJ]

The only thing that I don't like about many new gun designs is the extensive use of polymers in the major components. I have some Mausers that are almost 120 years old and they still shoot fine because metal doesn't degrade from UV light or time. The same thing can't be said of polymers. How many polymer guns with be functional in 100 years?

More than metal guns which will corrode. Most gun polymers are carbon based, which doesn't degrade.

[svauto-erotic855]

More than metal guns which will corrode. Most gun polymers are carbon based, which doesn't degrade.

All plastics degrade; at the moment nothing can change that. Oiling metal will extend its life indefinitely. I believe that it is planned obsolescence from the weapon manufactures. Armor All maybe?

[CJ]

All plastics degrade; at the moment nothing can change that. Oiling metal will extend its life indefinitely. I believe that it is planned obsolescence from the weapon manufactures. Armor All maybe?

I think you're crazy.

[Moose242]

All plastics degrade; at the moment nothing can change that. Oiling metal will extend its life indefinitely. I believe that it is planned obsolescence from the weapon manufactures. Armor All maybe?

No.... just... no.

[CJ]

Glocks (for example) use a Nylon 6 polymer, which is mixed with carbon black which virtually eliminates UV degradation. It's 3x more expensive than carbon steel, which is why you don't see it in lawn chairs and other items you are using to judge the versatility of polymers. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. It's only weakness is being in superheated water which will break it down. So as long as you're not hot tanking your polymer guns for years at a time, you're fine.

[Moose242]

Not to mention that most plastics are non biodegradable and hence not susceptible to bacterial or environmental degradation. You could bury an HK or Glock frame for 100 years and dig it up and all the plastic would look the same. Try that with an old metal 1911 or similar pistol.

I knew my 2 years as a Biology major would pay off. Woohoo.

[svauto-erotic855]

The test done on plastics are just simulated test with no tried and true history behind them. We know EXACTLY how steel and aluminum will age but we only have a best guess when it comes to polymers. If you truly believe everything a manufacture (Monsanto is not exactly known for telling the truth) tells you about a plastic resin then I bet that you also believe all of the guys that call with a new investment opportunity.


Don't get me wrong; I own plenty of firearms that are very high in polymer content. I would simply prefer firearms that I plan to keep in the family for the next 100 years to be made from mostly metals or materials that can easily be fabricated in the back woods.

[CJ]

The test done on plastics are just simulated test with no tried and true history behind them. We know EXACTLY how steel and aluminum will age but we only have a best guess when it comes to polymers. If you truly believe everything a manufacture (Monsanto is not exactly known for telling the truth) tells you about a plastic resin then I bet that you also believe all of the guys that call with a new investment opportunity.


Don't get me wrong; I own plenty of firearms that are very high in polymer content. I would simply prefer firearms that I plan to keep in the family for the next 100 years to be made from mostly metals or materials that can easily be fabricated in the back woods.

guys said that exact same thing about the corvette's fiberglass body when it first came out. Don't fear change.

[svauto-erotic855]

guys said that exact same thing about the corvette's fiberglass body when it first came out. Don't fear change.

Change I don't fear. I do fear having grand kids that need a gun that I left them to work at a critical moment and having it crack apart in their hands.

That was a very bad comparison. Have you ever had to work on an older vette? I always feel like a carpenter when I do.

Fiberglas is also pretty simple compared to modern polymers (even though Nylon 6 has been around for 40 + years I still consider it to be a modern polymer) that may not be available by then time you need some resin.

[CJ]

Change I don't fear. I do fear having grand kids that need a gun that I left them to work at a critical moment and having it crack apart in their hands.

That was a very bad comparison. Have you ever had to work on an older vette? I always feel like a carpenter when I do.

Fiberglas is also pretty simple compared to modern polymers (even though Nylon 6 has been around for 40 + years I still consider it to be a modern polymer) that may not be available by then time you need some resin.

Not sure where the carpenter comes in, but yes I have a '63 coupe.

[Ruffdaddy]

Badass gun, I wish I could throw the money at one of these guys.

Glocks (for example) use a Nylon 6 polymer, which is mixed with carbon black which virtually eliminates UV degradation. It's 3x more expensive than carbon steel, which is why you don't see it in lawn chairs and other items you are using to judge the versatility of polymers. Loss of mechanical properties with 2% Carbon-Black is less than 0.05% on an elevated UV exposure test equivalent to approximately 100 years. It's only weakness is being in superheated water which will break it down. So as long as you're not hot tanking your polymer guns for years at a time, you're fine.

You are missing a lot of details here. Nylon is affected by more than just UV. SEVERAL things affect polymers, and those factors depend on the type of polymer.

In the case of Nylon, you have an interesting phenomenon through thermal cycling related to water absorbtion and residual stress relaxation. I know this personally because I ran several tests on different samples of nylon 6/6 (PA66) to understand the negative affects this occurence will have on a system at work.

In both nylon 6 and nylon 6/6 you will see increased crazing from both time and aqueous salt solutions. There is going to be a similar affect if exposed to several of the elements in standard soils. The nylon will degrade. You can do things to slow the degradation to certain elements, but nothing is 100%.

With that said, I do not believe polymers will degrade any worse than metal (given a standard lifetime). I would NEVER use a polymer for a precision alignment application requiring any structural integrity and dimensional stability over various temperature ranges, but see no issue with how it's used in many cases.

Not to mention that most plastics are non biodegradable and hence not susceptible to bacterial or environmental degradation. You could bury an HK or Glock frame for 100 years and dig it up and all the plastic would look the same. Try that with an old metal 1911 or similar pistol.

I knew my 2 years as a Biology major would pay off. Woohoo.

I suggest doing more research on this. The plastic will degrade, maybe not as much as the metal (and maybe more depending on treatments, platings, etc)...but each material has it's application. Knowing the failure modes of polymers will help you to better realize what will in fact affect these parts.

However I repeat...I see no problem with the way the plastics are used in these instances.

I knew my mechanical engineering degree, materials science minor, and work experience would pay off

[bottlerocket]

That thing = southpaw's dream. Holy crap do want.

[svauto-erotic855]

Not sure where the carpenter comes in, but yes I have a '63 coupe.

Everything has to be screwed or glued instead of just taking a MIG welder to it. I have even had to cut body panels with a carpenters saw before.

[CJ]

Everything has to be screwed or glued instead of just taking a MIG welder to it. I have even had to cut body panels with a carpenters saw before.

The point is, they are 60 years old and still perfectly fine cars. Naysayers of the time were saying they would fall apart and be nothing more then frames.

[Ruffdaddy]

Everything has to be screwed or glued instead of just taking a MIG welder to it. I have even had to cut body panels with a carpenters saw before.

But with polymers you can mold in features and parts unlike fibreglass layups.

You also have to consider the very aggressive weight requirements companies must meet when developing military technologies. If what I read was correct, and these are for Italian armed forces, I guarantee that plastic helped them get there. With soldiers carrying more and more equipment, all new hardware is having to shed pounds.