Wanting a 10mm...

[payne5757]

Have you actually held a Glock 20? They're not exactly slim, and they aren't exactly ergonomic either. Which double stack guns have you played with?

Yes and although its the big frame for Glocks, I don't mind it. I've got pretty big paws. Other than fit in my hands being fine, it being a larger gun isn't a problem because that's the niche I'm wanting this gun for.

Sent from my Super Schweet G2

[BlackGT]

I have a 2nd Gen G20 and love it! Picked mine up used from Cabelas for a steel at less than $400 otd. The quote on the Double Tap ammo ballistics is correct. While the G20/21 are large, they fit my hands. I even added the Hogue slip on grip for my G20 to make it feel more like a gen 3.

As was said, most commercially loaded ammo that you can find at academy or cabelas is weak. Academy has some Federal Hydro-shoks in 10mm and 40 s&W. I compared the ballistics on the boxes and they only have the 10mm loaded to 30fps and 25ftlb of energy over the 40 s&w with 185 grain bullets. A full power load with 185 grain should be upwards of 1400-1500 fps with over 700 lbft of energy.

It's a shame that the 10mm is now a niche cartridge. But I have plenty of ammo for mine and will start reloading my spent cases soon...

[BajaBob]

After shooting CJ's 10mm loads and getting the run down from him, I am convinced that it is one of the best hand gun rounds ever conceived.

I really like 9mm for carry because of capacity. If shit were to seriously hit the fan I want 15 rounds on me in case I have to work my way home without a working vehicle or similar situation. You never know, being 45 minutes away from home by vehicle could be hours on foot. Have to load my own 9mm though because nothing off the shelf is hot enough in hollow point.

That being said, I will go 10mm in the future for a sidearm when hunting hog, and keeping in my vehicle. It is a bit of a novelty round considering how rare it is, but that's what makes reloading rewarding.

[CJ]

vadertt on the delta showing the fireball:

[svauto-erotic855]

Nothing wrong with a G20. There are other 10mm hand guns on the market but other then the Witness they are all very high $. A G20 is a GREAT place to start.

They are a large gun and will not fit the hands of many people. I have big hands and the G20's are still a tiny bit too big for me. I keep meaning to pick up a G20sf but I haven't gotten around to it.

If you want a 10mm but don't load your own ammo you are wasting your time.

In factory loads there are a few good offerings to pick from but the cost is quite high. For everyday carry I like the Winchester silvertips; it is nearly an old school full power 10mm load + it is cheap and readily available. For hunting I like the Buffalo Bore hardcast loads. In general I stick with loads that are 165gr or higher.

[BlackGT]

In factory loads there are a few good offerings to pick from but the cost is quite high. For everyday carry I like the Winchester silvertips;

Agree, Double Tap has about the best offerings available.
I also carry the Silvertips and the Hornady.

[CJ]

The problem with 10mm for self defense is over penetration. Even 185gr HP will go right through someone. I opt to use 135gr @ 1522fps for people killing. That bullet is moving so fast it will go off like a grenade inside of a person. My 185gr bullet @ 1450fps put about 5 exit wounds on a hog for example. The above video of vader shooting is two different loads. The first 8 rounds are 200gr, the last 16 are 135gr @ 1522fps.

[svauto-erotic855]

The problem with 10mm for self defense is over penetration. Even 185gr HP will go right through someone. I opt to use 135gr @ 1522fps for people killing. That bullet is moving so fast it will go off like a grenade inside of a person. My 185gr bullet @ 1450fps put about 5 exit wounds on a hog for example.

I prefer a rifle in .308 Win for self defense and don't give a damn about over penetration; I believe that it is an over hyped myth invented by self promoting writers to give them something new to write about.

Most shots fired in self defense miss the target completely. Until we get to a point that we can hit with every shot fired worrying about over penetration is the same a thinking about lint in your navel.

The Russians having a saying that I really like that roughly translates to this; "Is not safe, is gun".

[CJ]

I prefer a rifle in .308 Win for self defense and don't give a damn about over penetration; I believe that it is an over hyped myth invented by self promoting writers to give them something new to write about.

Most shots fired in self defense miss the target completely. Until we get to a point that we can hit with every shot fired worrying about over penetration is the same a thinking about lint in your navel.

The Russians having a saying that I really like that roughly translates to this; "Is not safe, is gun".

Well since you can't conceal carry a .308 battle rifle that means you intend to use it in your house. And unless you want to potentially kill your neighbors in their bed, put holes/destroy things in adjacent rooms/destroy the house you're defending you might want to rethink that. I use a short barrel 870 in my house with Rhodesian jungle rounds.

[VaderTT]

vadertt on the delta showing the fireball:

I'll be making my own 10mm fireball vid soon! I should get my witness in a week hopefully.

[svauto-erotic855]

Well since you can't conceal carry a .308 battle rifle that means you intend to use it in your house. And unless you want to potentially kill your neighbors in their bed, put holes/destroy things in adjacent rooms/destroy the house you're defending you might want to rethink that. I use a short barrel 870 in my house with Rhodesian jungle rounds.

You should spend a little time playing with common building materials and shooting holes in them. You will find that most hand gun rounds will penetrate a great deal more then a fast rifle bullet will. All bets are off when you try a top quality 12ga slug or a heavy & S L O W 45/70 load; they go through everything.

[CJ]

You should spend a little time playing with common building materials and shooting holes in them. You will find that most hand gun rounds will penetrate a great deal more then a fast rifle bullet will. All bets are off when you try a top quality 12ga slug or a heavy & S L O W 45/70 load; they go through everything.

I've shot through anything you can imagine, cars, houses... shit I can even tell you what calibers won't puncture individuals components of just about everything in your house. I can tell you that a Mosin Nagant will discharge when you bayonet GE refridgerators manufactured pre-1960.

There are studies which show the penetration of 12ga rounds in drywall, it is the best choice in your house. A .308 is just negligent.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

I load my Rhodesian relatively light, most loads will be between 1300-1500fps, I load to 1,100. Not just for recoil, but at night time with a magnum or full 2-3/4" shell the muzzle flash will completely blind you. When I drop down to 1,100 it has only a few sparks and it's easy to shoot targets at night.

[svauto-erotic855]

I can tell you that a Mosin Nagant will discharge when you bayonet GE refrigerators manufactured pre-1960.

Oh god that sounds like fun.

Since my most common go to house gun is an M1A or a VEPR I played with loads to see what works the best without killing my neighbors and I am happy with what I came up with. If I have to use it and hurt someone other then my target/targets in the process I will face the music for my actions then. In the meantime I am not going to worry about it or try to second guess myself.

For EDC I actually like a .38spl or .357 revolver simply because I work outside and have to wear light cloths in the summer. In the winter I normally carry a high power in 9mm. For handguns around the house I keep a G20 in a holster on my armor for backup. I have been considering changing out a G31 for the G20 but I haven't had time to practice with one as much as I should before making the switch.

[CJ]

Oh god that sounds like fun.

Since my most common go to house gun is an M1A or a VEPR I played with loads to see what works the best without killing my neighbors and I am happy with what I came up with. If I have to use it and hurt someone other then my target/targets in the process I will face the music for my actions then. In the meantime I am not going to worry about it or try to second guess myself.

For EDC I actually like a .38spl or .357 revolver simply because I work outside and have to wear light cloths in the summer. In the winter I normally carry a high power in 9mm. For handguns around the house I keep a G20 in a holster on my armor for backup. I have been considering changing out a G31 for the G20 but I haven't had time to practice with one as much as I should before making the switch.

Even if you loaded those rounds subsonic to around 1100fps to where they were reasonably equal to a .40 or 9mm (which will puncture 6 interior walls) you'd have to manually cycle the action which kind of defeats the purpose.

I like .45 for carry because it doesn't over penetrate, and it's easy to control. but I do have a .357 for carry as well - a little bit smaller and easier to conceal.

[CJ]

Oh god that sounds like fun.

Also, a .22LR will penetrate your fridge door, but a large sam's size jar of pickles will slow the bullet down enough to only dent the rear of your fridge.