SWAT team raid, Vet killed

[Machx2]

My first take was that maybe she was too dumb/scared to know. Most SWAT teams wear a hood and all that black shit, it is possible that she never saw anything that indicated "police" and just freaked the fuck out. You know how women are. She then told her husband "someone is outside with a gun" or some other alarmist comment and he went from asleep into full on defense mode.

That also is a possibility. I would have got a look for myself.

[ThreeFingerPete]

Don't worry guys, I'm certain that after it's investigated it will be ruled that the Police acted properly.

[AnthonyS]

I have a huge problem with this entire story and find it outrageous as a former member of our military and a citizen.

These policemen should be charged with murder, convicted and executed. It's that simple, and I can tell you why.

Please read pages four and five of this document on deadly force and the use of deadly force.

http://www.i-mef.usmc.mil/div/hqbn/hq/_downloads/sja/references/MCO%205500.6F%20Arming%20of%20Security%20Forces.pdf

You'll notice that responsible use of deadly force requires the minimum use of force necessary to stop the response that required the use of deadly force.

There is no way in hell to justify 71 rounds and 60 hits to stop one suspect from anything. This is murder plain and simple. Not letting the paramedics on the scene immediately is also an act of murder. A no knock warrant and them shooting this many times, is premeditated murder.

Welcome to the nanny state. Only our current government would employ and arm people this stupid.

I know for a fact that they train better than this. I have had to sit through this training personally. I provided you with a document very similar to the one our government used to train myself and countless others in the use of deadly force.

If any soldier had committed this act against anyone of any nationality, there would be worldwide outrage, a court martial, a conviction of life imprisonment or death.

The fact that we somehow let the police slide on these rules is simply unfathomable.

[Machx2]

If any soldier had committed this act against anyone of any nationality, there would be worldwide outrage, a court martial, a conviction of life imprisonment or death.
.

This right here is the only thing from your post that got me a little bit. I personally can say this is bs. I saw more cover ups in my little military career then anyone would in a life time else where. Every day the military murders innocent people. May not be on purpose, but it happens. Just as this case. It may not have been justified. But they didn't intentionally murder him and messed up. There should be punishment where ever the mistake was made. On both sides, but stating that if a soldier committed the crime he would be punished every time is just crazy.

[AnthonyS]

This right here is the only thing from your post that got me a little bit. I personally can say this is bs. I saw more cover ups in my little military career then anyone would in a life time else where. Every day the military murders innocent people. May not be on purpose, but it happens. Just as this case. It may not have been justified. But they didn't intentionally murder him and messed up. There should be punishment where ever the mistake was made. On both sides, but stating that if a soldier committed the crime he would be punished every time is just crazy.

I never said there aren't cover ups. If the public found out about it there would be outrage, a court martial, a conviction and a life or death sentence.

These officers deserve no less.

[Broncojohnny]

I read somewhere late yesterday in an opinion column in one of the Arizona newspapers that they thought he was part of a home invasion ring. The reporter said someone in the sheriff's office told him that they found body armor and fake police swat team clothing. I guess we'll see if/when the official story comes out!

[JamisonFRC]

Let me start out by saying I have the utmost respect for anyone that served our great nation. However, that does not give them a pass on breaking the law. You see stories everywhere how "only the poor get sent to fight". If that's true, then is it that hard to imagine that when they get back some may use their training for criminal purposes to make money? Who better to do home invasions than someone that has been clearing houses for last nine months?

I have no opinion on the article posted. I try to not talk about things I have no personal knowledge. But I can tell you that the amount of guns, money and dope we see out here is going up. The majority have surveillance systems with cctv set-ups. Tell me you want to do a knock warrant on someone that is watching you on a monitor with an AK next to his bed.

[futant]

good points in here about why it's hard to do a knock warrant, or arrest them when they leave in a car or observe your team on camara poised to enter.

I don't know if that really substantiates that fact that they are either going to resist or they aren't.
Some people want to harm the police, some don't.
But knowing that.... when they show up and kick in the door yelling it's the police, you are forcing people to determine if they are a threat , the real cops or not all in under 30 seconds.

That gives me NO CHOICE basically. I might be doing nothing wrong, they're at the wrong place, they had poor intelligence that obtained the warrant.... doesn't matter now because I've got x number of guys running in my doorway.

Now given a choice and the police presenting me a warrant and having the decency of allowing me to substantiate they are there for a legal reason makes me :

1) helps to solidify and believe they are the real police and operating inside of their legal boundaries and do not want a fight. After all they have the advantage any way with power, weapons and people. Why would they need to raid me ? They know they can win, right ?

2) not fear for my life in a split second. When decisions are made fast by any one human , mistakes will be made. Yes I'm going to have to aim my gun, like this guy, you can take that as a threat if you want. You just kicked down my door and my intention was to shoot whoever is entering. What other choice would I have ? I can't even REMOTELY know whether you are SWAT or not until I actually SEE YOU.

3) want to give up. I know you have a million guys and you aren't leaving, why would I want to definitley die? I don't know what the hell youve got coming through my front door when Im asleep.


So when I think about this logically , I would think the police and SWAT would want this to all go down as safely and easily as possible.
But they never do it that way?


BTW my comments in this thread about NO KNOCK warrants do not mean I don't believe this Vet guy wasn't up to something.
So far it seems like they knew he was a part of this ring, had a legit warrant, and executed it in a fashion I appreciate (Knock warrant)
Unfortunately this guy wasn't giving up, and there are definitely still more details to be known.
I agree this was a total PR nightmare for them on so many levels . The guy probably was a scumbag though. They really effed up the story though in the begining they gave to the media ! and that just spiraled it out of control!

[blownaltered]

From the first link:
" A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history."

They were certainly adamant about it NOT being a no-knock warrant. Me thinks thou doth protest too much.
That being said, if I hear someone milling around outside my house in the middle of the night, the FIRST thing I will do is arm myself. If someone then bursts through my door, it's game on. Home invasions are FAR too prevalent in otherwise "nice" neighborhoods to do otherwise. In Pima county, it would be foolish to do any otherwise.

From what I read one kid was at school so this is during the day. Also they thought the wife and other kid would be gone. So it seems to be they had been watching them

[Big A]

I read somewhere late yesterday in an opinion column in one of the Arizona newspapers that they thought he was part of a home invasion ring. The reporter said someone in the sheriff's office told him that they found body armor and fake police swat team clothing. I guess we'll see if/when the official story comes out!

I heard that too, and if so that could potentially justify the knock warrant, and even deadly force if he postured with a gun. To make him into swiss cheese is uncalled for, as is the hour wait to let the paramedics in.

[Broncojohnny]

Just look at the execution we have here. My favorite part is the guy who is not even close to the door and not under fire, running up to empty his pistol into the house. That is what I would do if I were at a blocked doorway and felt my life was in danger from someone with a gun, I would run towards the doorway and then empty my pistol at whatever target I happen to glimpse when I get there. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XP0f00_JMak

[ThreeFingerPete]

I heard that too, and if so that could potentially justify the knock warrant, and even deadly force if he postured with a gun. To make him into swiss cheese is uncalled for, as is the hour wait to let the paramedics in.

If you want to make sure he can't talk, it's much easier to let him die.

[ceyko]

Just look at the execution we have here. My favorite part is the guy who is not even close to the door and not under fire, running up to empty his pistol into the house. That is what I would do if I were at a blocked doorway and felt my life was in danger from someone with a gun, I would run towards the doorway and then empty my pistol at whatever target I happen to glimpse when I get there. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XP0f00_JMak

That did not look very organized.

[ThreeFingerPete]

that did not look very organized.

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrooooooyyyyyyyyy yyy jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeennnnnnnkins.

[ceyko]

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrooooooyyyyyyyyy yyy jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeennnnnnnkins.

Damn you for making me laugh over something like that!

I did not see any chicken though...