lets talk budget sights/optics

[YALE]

loose pattern... i figured i would have tightened up my pattern lol

Would you be available some weekend for one of us to walk you back through some fundamentals? You might have a great eye, and replicate sight picture well enough, but if you've never been walked through the fundamentals of sighting in an AR, chances are you could really benefit from a little instruction. If I had more weekends free, I'd be glad to slide up there, but you might hit TFP up. He's got random free time in his schedule.

[momo]

400 yards with no magnification? F! i can't even see really beyond 100 yards. i need a lesson in technique it seems.

i was able to hit at 100 yards with iron on my ak47 before i sold it. the group was ugly. i couldnt imagine it at 200.

[motoman]

400 yards with no magnification? F! i can't even see really beyond 100 yards. i need a lesson in technique it seems.

i was able to hit at 100 yards with iron on my ak47 before i sold it. the group was ugly. i couldnt imagine it at 200.

Marines qualify out to 500 yards with iron sights.

[ceyko]

Yeah it's all possible. In my opinion, it has more to do with breathing and trigger pull - which keeps you steady on target than anything else.

[CJ]

400 yards with no magnification? F! i can't even see really beyond 100 yards. i need a lesson in technique it seems.

i was able to hit at 100 yards with iron on my ak47 before i sold it. the group was ugly. i couldnt imagine it at 200.

It's all concentration, and knowing how to align your front sight. Then it's focusing between the two and on the target. It just takes practice.

[BajaBob]

Word of advice.

Don't go cheap on optics.

You'll eventually replace it with something better.

Learn to shoot with Iron Sights. If you only want to hit a basket ball at 100 yards it should be VERY EASY with iron sights.

x2... irons are easy at 100 yards. you should have two distance settings on your rear sight that flip down for short and long range. If you get a cheap red dot, make sure its below 4MOA

[BajaBob]

I hate to just pop in here 23 posts into the thread, but you should be able to shoot a 1" group at 100 yards with iron sights. Hitting a cantaloupe at 100 yards shouldn't even be a concern. Hitting a cantaloupe at 200 yards should be very easy. A run of the mill 16" AR-15 will group decent at 400 yards if you can shoot it. You might want to just try a little more trigger time, and maybe take a few tips and learn it shoot it a little better. At that point I feel like you will change your thoughts. I'm not saying that it isn't some iron sight issue, it certainly could be. I highly doubt that though. If you're free some weekend you're more than welcome to come to my range and we can look at your rifle with your current A3 sights and see if we can iron out the problems. I should be able to tell you if you have a problem with 3 squeezes. If there is an issue we will fix it.

The reason I've focused on this is primarily because the accuracy difference between an EOTech, Aimpoint, and iron sights is nothing. None of them carry a magnification, they only present you with a point of aim. One of the three is a little more difficult (or arguable the only one) to master, however it has advantages over the other two. EOTech's and Aimpoints are quicker for close quarters as they do not require as much focus and obstruction to peripheral view.

Originally when I got into rifles I did not understand the draw of iron sights. Honestly, I figured it was just a mutual understanding between old school, and rifles - a more nostalgic/romantic relationship with your gun. But, after spending quite a time getting iron sights down, I finally got it. Firstly, there is nothing more satisfying than hitting a very distant target with nothing more than iron sights. However, I believe iron sights are superior in reliability and repeatability. Probably the most rewarding experience I have is sitting down next to a guy which a $2,500 nightforce remington 700, and out shooting him with an issue M16 with iron sights and surplus ammo.

Truth be told, if the world really did go to shit, and I had a gun to choose, it would be that old vietnam M16A1 with iron sights. It simply is not going to fail or break, period. And honestly it's probably the most accurate of my rifles only second to my long range AR with the scope (which weighs a shit ton).

If you are free, I encourage you to come out some time with that gun and take a day to figure it out, and see if optics is really your best solution. You might find out it isn't.

unless he's shooting those armor piercing rounds we made... lmao.

[momo]

It's all concentration, and knowing how to align your front sight. Then it's focusing between the two and on the target. It just takes practice.

ok, i'll work on it. i can use my 20" AR since it has no optics right now.

i have a set of magpul flip ups but i will buy a set of irons. what kind should i get? my rails are not on plane, my gas block rail seems to be off plane. i guess i need a front sight made for a low profile gas block?

[CJ]

ok, i'll work on it. i can use my 20" AR since it has no optics right now.

i have a set of magpul flip ups but i will buy a set of irons. what kind should i get? my rails are not on plane, my gas block rail seems to be off plane. i guess i need a front sight made for a low profile gas block?

That's a hard question to answer. I've always been confused with different gas block heights and so on. It's a giant pain in the ass to deal with. I'd recommend searching online and finding people with your gas block and seeing what they used. I would try to get some quality flip up sights, the more play they have the less accurate they're gonna be, obviously. Flip up sights probably are worse than most. I've seen the YHM flip ups, and the rear didn't seem too bad.

[futant]

good advice in this thread.
really you should always go back and focus on teh fundamentals of shooting .
Iron sights are definitely the best way to do that in many ways.
Gong = even better! nothing like hearing the twang of your shot, instant gratification.

I would also suggest you try many shooting positions. less caffine , concentration, relaxing.
I'm not saying im good with irons much, but damn it amazes me that people can make consistant hits beyond 200 yrds with them. Man much beyond 100 yards, and the biggest problem i have is that the sights begin to obscure anything small.
Also focusing between teh front to rear sight can be agrevating at further distances.
Without a doubt i think that eye fatigue is increased a good bit trying those further shots.
I also just don't get how peep sights work so well for other people , but not for me.
I get the concept that the peep is supposed to naturally center the front blade in the middle , but i still dont like it . At closer ranges 100 yards or so, peeps work fine.
iron sights also seem so damn slow at far ranges. I could just cuss up a storm if I can't get situated into a good position.

[CJ]

good advice in this thread.
really you should always go back and focus on teh fundamentals of shooting .
Iron sights are definitely the best way to do that in many ways.
Gong = even better! nothing like hearing the twang of your shot, instant gratification.

I would also suggest you try many shooting positions. less caffine , concentration, relaxing.
I'm not saying im good with irons much, but damn it amazes me that people can make consistant hits beyond 200 yrds with them. Man much beyond 100 yards, and the biggest problem i have is that the sights begin to obscure anything small.
Also focusing between teh front to rear sight can be agrevating at further distances.
Without a doubt i think that eye fatigue is increased a good bit trying those further shots.
I also just don't get how peep sights work so well for other people , but not for me.
I get the concept that the peep is supposed to naturally center the front blade in the middle , but i still dont like it . At closer ranges 100 yards or so, peeps work fine.
iron sights also seem so damn slow at far ranges. I could just cuss up a storm if I can't get situated into a good position.

Well first and foremost you have to make sure your iron sights are perfectly accurate. Getting a good long range shot is keeping your aim consistent. A lot of people will just look through the peep sight and put the front post on the target - sounds simple enough. For 100 yards that is fine. For 200+ you need to begin to center your front post by measuring the light on the left and right side of the post, making sure that not only are you aiming through your peep, but also verifying your front sight is perfectly centered. That way you have a reference to maintain accuracy.



Keeping the light on each side (red) and the front sight post aim point directly in the center (blue) should yield good long range accuracy.

[ThreeFingerPete]

Focus on your front sight. The rear sight and the target will be out of focus.

[momo]

That's a hard question to answer. I've always been confused with different gas block heights and so on. It's a giant pain in the ass to deal with. I'd recommend searching online and finding people with your gas block and seeing what they used. I would try to get some quality flip up sights, the more play they have the less accurate they're gonna be, obviously. Flip up sights probably are worse than most. I've seen the YHM flip ups, and the rear didn't seem too bad.

yea it's annoying. YHM makes two different heights. one is called same plane so that obviously i dont need that one. ill probably call and ask them.

i see they make a gas block with integrated flip sight and a bottom rail. i might be interested in that

http://yhm.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_3&products_id=11

[CJ]

Focus on your front sight. The rear sight and the target will be out of focus.

Right, once you have your sight plane positioned the way you want it, you focus on the target and back to the front sight and make sure you are aimed where you want it.

Hold over is something you will need to master

100yds - large aperture - point blank - top of front sight impact - no drop.
200yds - large aperture - point blank - top of front sight impact - no drop.
300yds - large aperture - slight hold over - impact will be behind the front sight post, 1/3 way up.
400yds - small aperture - top of front sight impact - drop adjusted.
500yds - small aperture - slight hold over - impact will be behind the front sight post, 1/3 way up.
600yds - small aperture - higher hold over - impact will be halfway down front sight post w/ 55gr M193.
700yds - small aperature - high hold over - impact will be near base of front sight post.

at 200 yards a good marksman can get a headshot. At 300 yards a good marksman can get a good heart shot. At 400 yards your objective switches from shot placement, to hitting a man sized target. Over 400 yards with .223 is really a percentage of volume to impact.

[no4njnk]

I think it depends on what you use your gun for. Since mine are mostly for hunting I like a scope. If you are on a budget look at the Primary Arms brand. Just plinking its hard to be irons and is the most cost effective way.