Barefoot, fore foot, Vibram clad runners...how long to transition?

[93powerranger]

Just to butt in on the whole breaking a toe thing if you drop a weight. In all my years of lifting I have yet to drop a weight on my foot, and I believe if I do, that the mesh on my Nikes are not going to provide anymore protection than the Vibrams I wear. I also like doing leg days in the Vibrams, check out some old bodybuilding vids. all those guys trained barefoot, maybe it was a hippie thing but I understand how it works. Like many others that are ordering these shoes, they are very well informed. I researched them for over a year before finally getting a pair. I don't wear them all the time but it is a good training tool for me. Sprinting in them is great btw. Check out sprinter spikes. They probably weigh less than my vibrams (minus the spikes) and have roughly the same amount of heel support or any for that matter.

All in all, drop a weight on your toe, regardless the shoe (unless reinforced) it is going to hurt and something is going to be injured. Less is more when running and the only SHOE that has helped with any pain when standing around all day is the Reebok Zigs, but provide no benefit to training.

[ceyko]

Shoe arguments are like arguments about gun combinations, yeah really have to pick what's best for you.

Admittedly I had my first shoe problem recently. Switch to a different model of Asics (via recommendation at Lukes) and DONE. Never ran in anything other then standard shoes. Normal pains are okay to me, lets you know you're alive. Embrace the suck.

Jonny, gonna run a 5 or 10K soon? I get stroller pushing duty lately, a twin stroller with these winds...great resistance training! At least I can say I am the fastest twin pushing runner out there (so far). Anyway, let me know if you go on one - the wife and I will probably join ya. Beers and breakfast afterwards is the fun part for me.

[Jonny00GT]

Once I'm use to the shoes and back in the swing of running, I'll start entering some races. Maybe that would be a good goal to set...give me a time frame. I'll check it out and haller at you.

[Ruffdaddy]

Just to butt in on the whole breaking a toe thing if you drop a weight. In all my years of lifting I have yet to drop a weight on my foot, and I believe if I do, that the mesh on my Nikes are not going to provide anymore protection than the Vibrams I wear...Sprinting in them is great btw. Check out sprinter spikes. They probably weigh less than my vibrams (minus the spikes) and have roughly the same amount of heel support or any for that matter.

All in all, drop a weight on your toe, regardless the shoe (unless reinforced) it is going to hurt and something is going to be injured. Less is more when running and the only SHOE that has helped with any pain when standing around all day is the Reebok Zigs, but provide no benefit to training.

Unless I completely missed it...NO ONE said anything about dropping weights. If you're referring to breaking a toe, that was mentioned because they allow independent toe movement with less reinforcement. Kicking a piece of equipment with a regular shoe will probably do nothing, but with vibrams you're much more vulnerable to injury.

And you do realize sprinter spikes typically have 3/4 or full plate in the sole right? They are nearly polar opposites in terms of free movement especially if you use an aggressive full plate.

[UserX]

I thought this was interesting. And these are world class runners, not some dudes on a Mustang message board

http://allafrica.com/stories/201003310805.html

Nairobi — Some of Kenya's star athletes at the world cross-country championships in Bydgoszcz, Poland, sprinted to the finishing line barefoot.

Would they have done even better in shoes?

"Hardly not - they had got it right", says Prof Daniel Lieberman of Harvard University.

After sampling 200 elite runners from Kenya and the US, Prof Lieberman and colleagues from the universities of Moi, in Eldoret, and Glasgow, in the UK, say barefoot running is safer and more comfortable than shod feet.

"Most people today think barefoot running is dangerous and hurts, but actually you can run barefoot on the world's hardest surfaces without the slightest discomfort and pain," says Prof Lieberman, who has done extensive studies on sports medicine.

Although most of the top flight runners are in expensive and powerfully advertised shoe brands, several Kenyans who beat the world on Sunday, including bronze medallist Esther Cherono, were shoeless.

The team, in a study published in the Nature journal in January, looked at more than 200 shod and unshod runners in the United States and Kenya's Rift Valley Province.

The volunteers represented a spectrum of shoe experience, including adults who had grown up wearing shoes, those who had grown up running shoeless but who now wore shoes, and those who had never worn shoes at all.

According to the study, the team arranged a trial in which each group ran shod and barefoot and measured their running gait and the impact on their bodies.

The team found that the shod runners landed on the ground almost four times more heavily than shoeless runners, while the latter indicated a more comfortable "ride" with less possibility of injury.

"As their feet collide with the running track, barefoot runners experience a shock of only 0.5 to 0.7 times their body weight, whereas the shod experience 1.5 to two times their body weight; a threefold to fourfold difference," says the study.

Like many who watched the Kenyans make mincemeat of the rest of the world and marvelled at some barefoot youngsters, the scholars were also surprised by their own findings.

"I always assumed it was painful and crazy to run barefoot," Prof Lieberman told Science Daily.

The study suggests that barefoot running can reduce the likelihood of pain and damage, because many running injuries are induced by the impact from hitting the track.

The team, however, does not recommend the doing away with running shoes for two key reasons. One is that shoes protect runners from glass and other debris on the ground, and two, because it would meet strong resistance from the multi-billion dollar sportswear industry.

"The upright man has the unique springy gait that is mainly designed for running. Homo sapiens, unlike the predecessors, have evolved a strong, large arch that we use as a spring when running. Our feet were made in part for running," says Prof Lieberman

[UserX]

Bad things about vibrams... they are ugly, they offer no protection from dropping something on your feet, they are a PITA putting them on and taking them off, & they tend to get really smelly

My original pair is over a year old and I've put countless miles on them. I also wear them everyday in the steamroom and hot tub. They still look brand new, no wear, which amazes me because there is nothing to them.

[AnthonyS]

I have learned all of this for myself by experimenting. My shin splints and PF both disappeared by running in the least show possible.

I still hate the toe pockets on vibrams. And yes, mine stink something horrible.

My trail shoes with quick laces go on in seconds (less than 10 for both) and don't smell.

I have some Addi zeroes I'll be running in too. They are next to nothing compared to most running shoes.

The Kenyans and the Tahumara have forgotten more about running than our culture will ever know.

[Ruffdaddy]

I thought this was interesting. And these are world class runners, not some dudes on a Mustang message board

http://allafrica.com/stories/201003310805.html

Nairobi — Some of Kenya's star athletes at the world cross-country championships in Bydgoszcz, Poland, sprinted to the finishing line barefoot.

Would they have done even better in shoes?

"Hardly not - they had got it right", says Prof Daniel Lieberman of Harvard University.

After sampling 200 elite runners from Kenya and the US, Prof Lieberman and colleagues from the universities of Moi, in Eldoret, and Glasgow, in the UK, say barefoot running is safer and more comfortable than shod feet.

"Most people today think barefoot running is dangerous and hurts, but actually you can run barefoot on the world's hardest surfaces without the slightest discomfort and pain," says Prof Lieberman, who has done extensive studies on sports medicine.

Although most of the top flight runners are in expensive and powerfully advertised shoe brands, several Kenyans who beat the world on Sunday, including bronze medallist Esther Cherono, were shoeless.

The team, in a study published in the Nature journal in January, looked at more than 200 shod and unshod runners in the United States and Kenya's Rift Valley Province.

The volunteers represented a spectrum of shoe experience, including adults who had grown up wearing shoes, those who had grown up running shoeless but who now wore shoes, and those who had never worn shoes at all.

According to the study, the team arranged a trial in which each group ran shod and barefoot and measured their running gait and the impact on their bodies.

The team found that the shod runners landed on the ground almost four times more heavily than shoeless runners, while the latter indicated a more comfortable "ride" with less possibility of injury.

"As their feet collide with the running track, barefoot runners experience a shock of only 0.5 to 0.7 times their body weight, whereas the shod experience 1.5 to two times their body weight; a threefold to fourfold difference," says the study.

Like many who watched the Kenyans make mincemeat of the rest of the world and marvelled at some barefoot youngsters, the scholars were also surprised by their own findings.

"I always assumed it was painful and crazy to run barefoot," Prof Lieberman told Science Daily.

The study suggests that barefoot running can reduce the likelihood of pain and damage, because many running injuries are induced by the impact from hitting the track.

The team, however, does not recommend the doing away with running shoes for two key reasons. One is that shoes protect runners from glass and other debris on the ground, and two, because it would meet strong resistance from the multi-billion dollar sportswear industry.

"The upright man has the unique springy gait that is mainly designed for running. Homo sapiens, unlike the predecessors, have evolved a strong, large arch that we use as a spring when running. Our feet were made in part for running," says Prof Lieberman

I suggest also reading the arguments against barefoot running. Anyone can do a one sided article for proof. I've read articles that referto the surge in barefoot running referred to as a stimulus plan for PTs.

That same harvard study discounts itself by saying actual controlled testing is needed to even test their hyopthesis.

Like was mentioned, everyone is different. Some people are awesome barefoot runners, but not everyone can run barefoot, and in many cases it's not optimum.

[Jonny00GT]

I think, just as a general rule, if you're going to post an opinion one way or the other, back it up with something. Google, read, research and support your side. If you think conventional running shoes are the holly grail, back it up! I can't find shit that says we SHOULD be using our arch as part of the contact area or that we SHOULD be landing on our heals.

Personally, what I found on "Runner's World" and running forum after forum was story after story and experience after experience of runners plaigued with stress fractures, foot pain, knee pain, hip pain, etc who "fixed" their foot strike and corrected their running form and now enjoy running again and are doing it pain free. Some of them did it by changing their foot strike and going to a minimalist shoe, some went barefoot, some in Vibrams.

I draw one conclusion from this...you can be lazy in conventional shoes and if your form deviates from what's biomechanically effective and joint friendly, you will eventually hurt and cause injury.

As I see it
1. Form is key! It's true in weight lifting, throwing a discus, throwing ANYTHING, Golf swing, "lift with your legs, not with your back", etc. Running seems so natural, who would have thought we need to learn to do it correctly, but it seems true!!
2. Find the shoe that fits your correct form.

Newly added to my research materials. Let's see what I find:

http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-amp-gaming/article/2009-05/running-barefoot

http://www.runningnut.com/barefoot-running/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/09/is-barefoot-running-good-for-you

Something neither here nor there that's been eating at me...have you ever rolled your ankle when you were barefoot? I've done it playing football, basketball, soccer, racquetball, hell just walking across the lawn and finding a hole in conventional shoes, but I can't think of a time I've ever done it barefoot.

I don't have the answer, but I'm looking!

-Jonny

[ceyko]

Jonny,
Why not just run 3 months in one type of shoe and then transition to the other and see what you like best?

All this talk about these other shoes, I'm considering giving them a shot myself. Personally, after the 2 mile mark everything is usually pretty numb for me anyway - but if it ups the speed and makes it easier to maintain my heart rate/cardio portion - why not?

I've never run in anything but standard running shoes either. Of course, long runs for me always have been and always will be 10K, medium 5K and short 2 miles. F a bunch of marathons or half marathons! Cheers to those who enjoy those long runs.

[Jonny00GT]

Jonny,
Why not just run 3 months in one type of shoe and then transition to the other and see what you like best?

All this talk about these other shoes, I'm considering giving them a shot myself. Personally, after the 2 mile mark everything is usually pretty numb for me anyway - but if it ups the speed and makes it easier to maintain my heart rate/cardio portion - why not?

I've never run in anything but standard running shoes either. Of course, long runs for me always have been and always will be 10K, medium 5K and short 2 miles. F a bunch of marathons or half marathons! Cheers to those who enjoy those long runs.

After 38yrs, I've tried a lot of shoes and shoe brands. These are the first ones that I'm excited about, if that makes sense. I guess I'll let you know if I still feel the same in 3mo??

I'm running today, hit the bike tomorrow, run again on Thursday, lift Friday and run again on Saturday. I'll let you know how they do.

So far, I have a pair I wear to work, lift in and just around, my Komodo Sports and I LOVE them! I don't even like putting on my regular shoes to work in the garage! I run in the Bikilas and they are lighter and the top breathes better and they are a blast to run in! I think I'm hooked, but I'll let you know if the honemoon phase gives out, but don't hold your breath! My Brother in Law has had a pair of KSOs for the last 2yrs or so and they about the only things I see him in when he's not at church!

-Jonny

[Jonny00GT]

Man, I'm loving these shoes! I just listen to my body and rest when I need it and I'm getting use to the new style of running. I can tell my feet and calves are getting stronger, my lower back doesn't tighten up when I run, my knee doesn't hurt after, my shins don't ache and my arches don't cramp and I'm carrying 30lbs more fat and muscle than before my surgery last year! Can't wait to see what I can do when I'm down to 200 (should be about 10% body fat at that weight.)

Chris, give me another month and let's find a 2-2.5mile fun run to do somewhere. Then I want to work up to 5k, 10k and see if I'm up for a half. My Co-worker will be starting training for one in Sept...I may have to jump on board!

-Jonny

[Flashstang04]

Man, I'm loving these shoes! I just listen to my body and rest when I need it and I'm getting use to the new style of running. I can tell my feet and calves are getting stronger, my lower back doesn't tighten up when I run, my knee doesn't hurt after, my shins don't ache and my arches don't cramp and I'm carrying 30lbs more fat and muscle than before my surgery last year! Can't wait to see what I can do when I'm down to 200 (should be about 10% body fat at that weight.)

Chris, give me another month and let's find a 2-2.5mile fun run to do somewhere. Then I want to work up to 5k, 10k and see if I'm up for a half. My Co-worker will be starting training for one in Sept...I may have to jump on board!

-Jonny

Fwiw, I train a lady in her 50s that runs 50 mile marathons and she swears by doing long distance in Vibrams.

[ceyko]

Man, I'm loving these shoes! I just listen to my body and rest when I need it and I'm getting use to the new style of running. I can tell my feet and calves are getting stronger, my lower back doesn't tighten up when I run, my knee doesn't hurt after, my shins don't ache and my arches don't cramp and I'm carrying 30lbs more fat and muscle than before my surgery last year! Can't wait to see what I can do when I'm down to 200 (should be about 10% body fat at that weight.)

Chris, give me another month and let's find a 2-2.5mile fun run to do somewhere. Then I want to work up to 5k, 10k and see if I'm up for a half. My Co-worker will be starting training for one in Sept...I may have to jump on board!

-Jonny

Just to be sure, what are you talking about when you say "these shoes"?

I'm all confused in this thread to be honest!

IMHO, what you mention that I bolded is most important to me. I'll wear shopping bags on my feet if it made a difference. So far, running shoes are fine for me.

Have fun with the running man. What I like about running is complete and total isolation for awhile. My headphones on and I don't care about anything and when running I'm thinking about whatever.

You're running outside right?

[Jonny00GT]

Just to be sure, what are you talking about when you say "these shoes"?

I'm all confused in this thread to be honest!

IMHO, what you mention that I bolded is most important to me. I'll wear shopping bags on my feet if it made a difference. So far, running shoes are fine for me.

Have fun with the running man. What I like about running is complete and total isolation for awhile. My headphones on and I don't care about anything and when running I'm thinking about whatever.

You're running outside right?

The Vibram 5 fingers are the "shoes" I'm referring to and yes, I was running outside today, but in the past my experience was the same on the treadmill as it was running outside. Honestly, I think the Vibrams are just a tool and it's more likely the improvement in my running form is where the benefit is coming from. I would probably feel the same way if I was running barefoot or in 4mm thin soul running flats. (There is a company that uses a vibram sole with conventional running shoe top that I saw at Lukes Locker Thursday. I dig the toes in my 5 fingers though.)

When you're not landing on your heal, you don't stretch out your legs, flex your feet up or land with our foot out in front of you. All your landings are cushioned by your feet, arch, calf on up. I'm also concentrating on not leaning forward and "chasing my head", so my running posture may be contributing to the lower back not locking up on me. I find I'm twisting my body more running fore foot so everything is working together. Because I focus more on my steps, I feel the ground better so I'm more stable. I get why people run barefoot...it's just fun! I have to run/jog and NOT break into a sprint at some point!

As far as the Vibrams, they fit well with no socks, but I picked up some Injini medium thickness micro lengths and ran in those this morning. They make the already great fitting "foot-gloves" hug my feet a little better. It's sort of like when you dig your feet into warm wet sand and it goes between your toes, only it's soft cotton on every surface of your foot...no toe on toe rubbing. Bonus is...no more stinky shoe that has to be washed all the time. I want to try the thicker ones with the Bikilas, but the mediums or the liners are great with my Komodos I wear around and working out in the gym.

Anyway...that's been my experience so far. I'm going to take tomorrow off and run M W F next week if I can stand not to run tomorrow. Honestly, this is the first time I'm more looking forward to the next run, than the rest between runs!

-Jonny

PS: I agree with what you like about running! I like to get lost in what's playing in my iPod and move with the music or if something is weighing on me, then I go sans music and work it out in my head over and over till I feel right about things and forget I'm running. The wind in my ears makes the voices quieter! LOL!