Just starting to run - any tips?

[Jonny00GT]

Bowerman fat? LOL. Newb.

Oh yea, stop quoting Runner's World if you want to be taken serious.

Dude, do you even read what you comment about or just close your eyes and blast away? I posted a link about Fartlek training...if you don't like it, then post a better one. And oh yeah...if you want to be taken seriously, try not being a condescending ass! This thread was started by a new runner asking for advice relating to his shin, top of the foot pain and trying to get faster...if you have some for him, go for it, but you're wasting you time on me...I've lost 30lbs in 5 mo since I started running mid/fore foot, put over 120 miles on my bare feet in the last 2 1/2mo since I started barefoot and run a 6.2mile long each week with 3-5 runs 3-6 miles long weekly and have zero running pain including all of the pains and issues that plagued me when I ran heal toe in shoes...Imma keep doing what I'm doing cause I'm having a blast!

-Jonny

[ceyko]

Imma keep doing what I'm doing cause I'm having a blast!

-Jonny

I think that is the key for most of us... I'd guesstimate 90% of us are average joes trying to stay healthy for a variety of reasons. Our wives loved us when fat, but we're just trying to do better for them, ourselves, kids...etc

Now, some of the expert advice posted or cockiness may come from folks who are a LOT more into 100% perfect fitness. That's cool, but I'm not sure some of the cockiness on any side is needed since they are all suggestions. At the end of the day, the OPs need to do their research, experiment and go to town. However, I can see the strong conviction/beliefs some of these guys have - considering from their pics they are very fit. Hell, it's no different then me refusing to try the barefoot thing since running in shoes has never been a real issue for me...except for that one pair I had.

Although, I do have to say what 01WC posted earlier helped me out when I tried it out on a run yesterday. (forgot to do it today-takes awhile for it to be habit for me) Again, taking bits and pieces and improving. My problem is I always get lazy and then sloppy.

Oh yeah, Jonny, quit saying Fartlek if you want me to take you serious! Jking.

[OldGuysRule]

Dude, do you even read what you comment about or just close your eyes and blast away? I posted a link about Fartlek training...if you don't like it, then post a better one. And oh yeah...if you want to be taken seriously, try not being a condescending ass! This thread was started by a new runner asking for advice relating to his shin, top of the foot pain and trying to get faster...if you have some for him, go for it, but you're wasting you time on me...

Yep, I know what I'm commenting about.

when some fat guy sizzled some rubber to the bottom of his shoe heel with his wife's waffle iron and birthed Nike

Bowerman used his waffle iron to create the first waffle trainer. Started Blue Ribbon Sports with Knight to sell a special shoe made by Asics. Turned the waffle trainer into Nike in a partnership with Knight.

http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...2081-0,00.html

Yep, know what I'm quoting again.


I did give him advice. Advice grounded in research and years of coaching other athletes. Not advice by a newb who read a couple of Runner's World articles and visits the forums at Active.

I've lost 30lbs in 5 mo since I started running mid/fore foot, put over 120 miles on my bare feet in the last 2 1/2mo since I started barefoot and run a 6.2mile long each week with 3-5 runs 3-6 miles long weekly and have zero running pain including all of the pains and issues that plagued me when I ran heal toe in shoes...Imma keep doing what I'm doing cause I'm having a blast!

-Jonny

Good for you. Wouldn't know what it feels like to have to lose 30 lbs.

Again, your injuries had nothing to do with heel-toe running. It had to do with a newb over striding and most likely an inefficient cadence. The switch to barefoot and toe strike had the effect of shortening your stride and increasing cadence. Amazing!

I hope you do keep doing it. Like I said I can't imagine letting myself get to the point I needed to lose 30 lbs. We'll revisit where you are at a year from now.

My suggestion for you is to cancel your subscription to Runners World and pick up books by Noakes, Lydiard, Daniels, Nakamura and Canova. Maybe even a book or two by Pfitzinger and Galloway.

[Jonny00GT]

OldGuy: Like I said...wasting your time, but hell...I've got some free time so I'll play.

First off, I don't have a subscription to Runners World.(You're not great at these assumptions you try and put together.) I've read Born to Run and Barefoot Ken Bob's Barefoot Running Step by Step.(before you bash him, you should know his technique is virtually identical to what you describe, minus the heal strike.) That guy's run over 70 marathons in no shoes, but has never managed to break a hip. True, I don't believe he's anywhere near the 2 1/2hr mark. Still, he makes sense and has saved me some plantar skin! I've also watch and paid close attention to the running form of the 3 guys running in the movie "Running the Sahara". You think 3 guys who run across a desert 4500 miles in 111 days know a little something about running form??? I've also spent countless hours pouring over research, video clips, pressure plate tests, slow motion footage, etc trying to learn how to run without pain, so I may be a newb as far as time goes, but I've been putting in the work! Does Dr. Romanov count as an expert in your book? No, right? Since you bashed the Olympic Coaches work trashing the Pose Method and then practically quoted his running technique in your idea of the right way to run...interesting.
Second, I think there are a lot of things you haven't experienced that I've been through. Ever blow out your ACL running full speed in a soccer game? Ever have a 7yr battle with Ulserative Colitis? Ever had your large intestine removed? Ever had 4 surgeries in one year? Don't think just cause I have weight to loose, I'm lazy and you know how it got there.
Third, I've been extremely active my whole life. I've played just about every sport I could, lifted weights, been coached and done my share of coaching since I was in the 8th grade, including breaking down and coaching gymnastics to children...after that, running form is beyond basic. I played 5yrs of football as a starting guard, defensive end and started as tight end my Sr year when I got all district honorable mention at a whopping 185lbs, 5'9" and a slow 5.0 fourty. I also played on the basketball team for 5yrs and 4yrs of track.
Finally, I've experienced running in shoes with a heal strike and as slow and miserable as I was, NO one would accuse me of over striding. Yes, as I have said time and again and will still say, I attribute my success from the last 5mo to the change in running form, but I also believe I could not have learned as quickly without taking my shoes off. I am not saying everyone should do it all the time, but I think it's a good idea to try. I've seen both sides and tried several different forms to find what feels best and most efficient to me. THAT makes me an expert on my body and because I was paying attention every step of the way, I can break down and explain how I got from point A to point B. I've had top of the foot pain in and out of shoes as well as shin splints in shoes and the first week of minimalist shoes.

So yeah...I think I'm qualified to point a new runner in the right direction. I've been skinny and fat, hated running and found a way to like it, make it easier, faster and enjoyable.

-Jonny

[ceyko]

-Jonny

Fartlek...

....yes, I'm immature.

[Jonny00GT]

Fartlek...

....yes, I'm immature.

I'm gonna Fartlek in front of you Monday! Haha!

[jfrog]

just get out and run, sometimes I think we get too technical and miss the mark. run with no headphones, listen, feel your breathing, heart rate and what your body is telling you. See what works best for you whether it's barefoot or shoes -water or gatorade or even what you eat. I am learning that there is no " one size fits all" and just to enjoy the fact that I have the ability to run and enjoy the natural high of endorphins

[OldGuysRule]

OldGuy: Like I said...wasting your time, but hell...I've got some free time so I'll play.

First off, I don't have a subscription to Runners World.(You're not great at these assumptions you try and put together.) I've read Born to Run and Barefoot Ken Bob's Barefoot Running Step by Step.(before you bash him, you should know his technique is virtually identical to what you describe, minus the heal strike.) That guy's run over 70 marathons in no shoes, but has never managed to break a hip. True, I don't believe he's anywhere near the 2 1/2hr mark. Still, he makes sense and has saved me some plantar skin! I've also watch and paid close attention to the running form of the 3 guys running in the movie "Running the Sahara". You think 3 guys who run across a desert 4500 miles in 111 days know a little something about running form??? I've also spent countless hours pouring over research, video clips, pressure plate tests, slow motion footage, etc trying to learn how to run without pain, so I may be a newb as far as time goes, but I've been putting in the work! Does Dr. Romanov count as an expert in your book? No, right? Since you bashed the Olympic Coaches work trashing the Pose Method and then practically quoted his running technique in your idea of the right way to run...interesting.
Second, I think there are a lot of things you haven't experienced that I've been through. Ever blow out your ACL running full speed in a soccer game? Ever have a 7yr battle with Ulserative Colitis? Ever had your large intestine removed? Ever had 4 surgeries in one year? Don't think just cause I have weight to loose, I'm lazy and you know how it got there.
Third, I've been extremely active my whole life. I've played just about every sport I could, lifted weights, been coached and done my share of coaching since I was in the 8th grade, including breaking down and coaching gymnastics to children...after that, running form is beyond basic. I played 5yrs of football as a starting guard, defensive end and started as tight end my Sr year when I got all district honorable mention at a whopping 185lbs, 5'9" and a slow 5.0 fourty. I also played on the basketball team for 5yrs and 4yrs of track.
Finally, I've experienced running in shoes with a heal strike and as slow and miserable as I was, NO one would accuse me of over striding. Yes, as I have said time and again and will still say, I attribute my success from the last 5mo to the change in running form, but I also believe I could not have learned as quickly without taking my shoes off. I am not saying everyone should do it all the time, but I think it's a good idea to try. I've seen both sides and tried several different forms to find what feels best and most efficient to me. THAT makes me an expert on my body and because I was paying attention every step of the way, I can break down and explain how I got from point A to point B. I've had top of the foot pain in and out of shoes as well as shin splints in shoes and the first week of minimalist shoes.

So yeah...I think I'm qualified to point a new runner in the right direction. I've been skinny and fat, hated running and found a way to like it, make it easier, faster and enjoyable.

-Jonny

Meb had a stress fracture most likely caused by running upwards to 200 miles a week at very fast rates of speed. Not uncommon whether barefoot or shod footed.

You mention Pose, who markets a set of books, coaches and dvds. He also is really good at making giant leaps in quoting research. Here I'll do what he does to research and turn it around for him.

He quotes a study that shows forefoot running reduces eccentric work on the knee thus must reduce knee injuries. But in the same study it shows eccentric work on the ankle is shown to increase under Pose.

Thus, I'll theorize Pose leads to higher incidents of calf muscle and achilles tendon injuries.

Bottom line on Pose, if you are susceptible to chronic injury in the knee and hip area you might want to give Pose a chance to see if it improves the situation (it may or may not). If you are susceptible to chronic calf and ankle issues Pose may actually increase the injury rate.

My huge problem with the barefoot running, Pose running and Chi running communities is most of the research is n=1. Someone starts doing it and after a few months claims it is the best thing since sliced bread. We don't hear about injuries because... well... the injured switch back to shoes and give up on barefoot running.

But, here, I'll use the same misunderstanding of research (although I'm not selling books or techniques or sandals to run in)... I know someone who was wearing Vibrams and training for a marathon. During training he stress fractured his second metatarsal.

Use the same claims barefoot, pose and chi do... I have concluded that Vibrams cause metatarsal stress fractures.

Now what is funny about the barefooters is it isn't the Vibrams causing the stress fracture. It is due to training errors.

But, if someone has a stress fracture of their 2nd metatarsal while wearing shoes... well it was the shoes.

Sorry, your n=1 experience and your minimum amount of training doesn't qualify you to give advice.

Like I said we'll revisit where you and jfrog are a year from now. My guess is no better and no worse.

Well maybe a fractured metatarsal or two... my research proves barefoot running stress fractures metatarsals! No not really. I don't misinterpret research and turn it on its end and draw conclusions based on assumptions.

The barefoot community needs to step out of the n=1 evidence up the hierarchy and into the meta-analysis phase. n=1 doesn't cut it for anyone with a brain.

Oh, and since we're quoting football experience, I played for a Div II national champion! Woo hoo! But, wait, I also have some certs from the NSCA and coach certs from USA Triathlon and USATF! I'm cool too! Oh, quite a few advanced courses in kinesiology as well. I'm super cool!

[Jonny00GT]

You can look over this article:
http://www.runnersworld.com/article/...2334-0,00.html

Oh yea, stop quoting Runner's World if you want to be taken serious.

Mmmhmmmm...

Let me back up and clarify something that may not have been obvious. None of my statements on running form are my own words. I've read studies that show the added weight to shoes can affect VO2max. I've read studies that show forefoot/midfood (specifically barefoot) is more energy efficient than a heel strike in spite of being bio-mechanically more active. I've ready studies and seen the impact plate graphs that landing on the heel sends an impact through the skeletal structure. I've read more than one book that promoted a landing under the runner's center of gravity with a 180s/m cadence.(Barefoot KenBob's book Barefoot Running Step by Step for instance.) All this and more I gathered before taking my first step in Vibrams or running full on barefoot. I was looking for the best shoe FOR ME and it turned out the answer was NONE. If you don't believe Harvard studies, controlled testing and real world poling because it's coming from me...I got nothing for you. My advice to anyone who wants to run has always been don't take my word for it, research it and put it to use. I've even helped out with a couple of links when they ask. Google is your friend!

That's all I got. I'd rather run than talk about running.

Later, Narcissistic OldGuy!!

-Jonny

[01yz2nv]

Not hard it weather like this, seems like running in the 100's cuts your distance in half!

[Vertnut]

Not hard it weather like this, seems like running in the 100's cuts your distance in half!

It's amazing what 10-15 degree's can do. Yesterday was my "brick" day (16 mile ride, 3 mile run) and it was SO much better than it has been. This morning I put in a little over 3 miles and it was actually enjoyable. Along with the temp, all your times will drop, too.

[ceyko]

It's amazing what 10-15 degree's can do. Yesterday was my "brick" day (16 mile ride, 3 mile run) and it was SO much better than it has been. This morning I put in a little over 3 miles and it was actually enjoyable. Along with the temp, all your times will drop, too.

Yeah, I ran my ass of today (for me) and it was all sore muscles - no heat issues whatsoever. It's awesome.