School me on pier and beam setups

[asphaltjunkie]

I'm planning on building a small house/cabin/cottage in a few months, and need some ideas/info on how to set up the support structure (I'm still learning terminologies here, so bear with me as I try to describe what I'm wanting to do here).

My original plan was to go the 4x4/6x6 concreted in a hole method, mostly because it seems like the easiest way to do it, and not have to mess with leveling out blocks and all that crap, plus I just dont trust the "up on blocks" method, especially when it comes to complete structural integrity.

Also, I'm building out in the country, outside city limits if that matters.

So my first of many questions for those in the know is (as long as this is a feasible method) what's the best way to set the posts in the ground to ensure they will stay put for the longest time? Meaning I don't want to worry about ever needing to make adjustments or whatever because a post started to sink farther into the ground over time.

I'll leave it at that for now til some of you chime in. Thanks guys.



Oh, and I have googled and youtubed the shit out of this, but having limited vocab regarding this stuff has been a hindrance.

[8mpg]

The best way (imo) is just pour concrete piers and use post bases. This keeps the wood out of the ground. Use concrete tube forms. You can also use steel posts.

How big of a structure?

[asphaltjunkie]

Approx 16'x24'.

[LANTIRN]

The great thing about pier and beam is adjustments can be made easily when it settles, which it will in this area. I don't know shit about construction but if you had doubt about structural integrity remember that method of house construction has been used for a very long time and is still used today.

What you described sounds alot like what I want to do if I every buy land; I want to build a small cabin to relax in as a sort of retreat. When you get this going please post updates, plan ideas, pics, etc, what worked well, what didn't. I am always looking to hear ideas about this future plan I have.

[asphaltjunkie]

The best way (imo) is just pour concrete piers and use post bases. This keeps the wood out of the ground. Use concrete tube forms. You can also use steel posts.

How big of a structure?

I was also contemplating doing something out of the ordinary and using roll on bedliner on the ends of the posts going into the ground to protect them, but I have no idea if or how bedliner would affect wood.

[8mpg]

just pour concrete piers.... putting wood in the ground is never a good idea

[LANTIRN]

Also I could be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that even with a piered slab setup like 8mpg mentioned you can still have it settle some in certain kinds of dirt. I am certain I read the only way to prevent it (except with something like a large earthquake) is to put the concrete piers on bedrock, which could be fairly shallow and cheap, or deap and expensive. I could be wrong but I read or heard that somewhere. Basically I am saying it is hard to never have any settling or shifting.

[juiceweezl]

just pour concrete piers.... putting wood in the ground is never a good idea

Incorrect. You realize that every pier/dock/boardwalk made from wood has posts in the ground and in the water, right? What about all the utility poles that you see everyday? Placing untreated posts in the ground is a bad idea, but placing properly treated wood posts into the ground the correct way will work just fine for many, many years.

Also I could be wrong, but I believe I read somewhere that even with a piered slab setup like 8mpg mentioned you can still have it settle some in certain kinds of dirt. I am certain I read the only way to prevent it (except with something like a large earthquake) is to put the concrete piers on bedrock, which could be fairly shallow and cheap, or deap and expensive. I could be wrong but I read or heard that somewhere. Basically I am saying it is hard to never have any settling or shifting.

Another myth. Soil has a 'grade' if you will that rates it's compaction/settling/etc. in the terms you are referring too. That determines the size of the footing needed to support. In other words, the bearing capacity of the soil determines everything.

Chapter 4 of the International Residential Code covers foundations. Here's a link to the section on footings: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...2_4_sec003.htm

I can't find a free link to the 2015 version, and I can't send a link to my copy either. It has a better table with more information on it. You can also see Section R507 Decks for proper details of a wood post buried in the ground on top of and attached to a concrete footing. There will hopefully be a footing table for decks in the next code cycle, but it won't account for a house like you're talking about, so the footing would need to be bigger than shown. The link above will give you the information you're looking for though.

[LANTIRN]

Incorrect. You realize that every pier/dock/boardwalk made from wood has posts in the ground and in the water, right? What about all the utility poles that you see everyday? Placing untreated posts in the ground is a bad idea, but placing properly treated wood posts into the ground the correct way will work just fine for many, many years.

Another myth. Soil has a 'grade' if you will that rates it's compaction/settling/etc. in the terms you are referring too. That determines the size of the footing needed to support. In other words, the bearing capacity of the soil determines everything.

Chapter 4 of the International Residential Code covers foundations. Here's a link to the section on footings: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...2_4_sec003.htm

I can't find a free link to the 2015 version, and I can't send a link to my copy either. It has a better table with more information on it. You can also see Section R507 Decks for proper details of a wood post buried in the ground on top of and attached to a concrete footing. There will hopefully be a footing table for decks in the next code cycle, but it won't account for a house like you're talking about, so the footing would need to be bigger than shown. The link above will give you the information you're looking for though.

Interesting info. Thanks for the link. Bookmarked it and will read more in depth on it later.

[8mpg]

Incorrect. You realize that every pier/dock/boardwalk made from wood has posts in the ground and in the water, right? What about all the utility poles that you see everyday? Placing untreated posts in the ground is a bad idea, but placing properly treated wood posts into the ground the correct way will work just fine for many, many years.

Another myth. Soil has a 'grade' if you will that rates it's compaction/settling/etc. in the terms you are referring too. That determines the size of the footing needed to support. In other words, the bearing capacity of the soil determines everything.

Chapter 4 of the International Residential Code covers foundations. Here's a link to the section on footings: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/ic...2_4_sec003.htm

I can't find a free link to the 2015 version, and I can't send a link to my copy either. It has a better table with more information on it. You can also see Section R507 Decks for proper details of a wood post buried in the ground on top of and attached to a concrete footing. There will hopefully be a footing table for decks in the next code cycle, but it won't account for a house like you're talking about, so the footing would need to be bigger than shown. The link above will give you the information you're looking for though.

incorrect.... (haha...had to)

You know the difference in the those and what hes going to use for the foundation? Those are old ACQ or creosote soaked. New EPA standards has killed the water penetration abilities of these materials. You are correct in that they make ground contact woods with higher ratings, but if you dont have to...why would you? Those telephone poles are creosote I believe and they are usually set with foam. Seems like he is doing this himself. The shit wood that is rated for ground contact at Lowes/HD does not have the same sealing properties you can get at a lumber yard or a specialty store. Why do people use metal posts on fences? Wood rots over time

Im just saying, if hes going to stick wood into the ground and fill the hole with concrete, why not just remove the wood and put an anchor on top? It will last much much longer.

[asphaltjunkie]

incorrect.... (haha...had to)

You know the difference in the those and what hes going to use for the foundation? Those are old ACQ or creosote soaked. New EPA standards has killed the water penetration abilities of these materials. You are correct in that they make ground contact woods with higher ratings, but if you dont have to...why would you? Those telephone poles are creosote I believe and they are usually set with foam. Seems like he is doing this himself. The shit wood that is rated for ground contact at Lowes/HD does not have the same sealing properties you can get at a lumber yard or a specialty store. Why do people use metal posts on fences? Wood rots over time

Im just saying, if hes going to stick wood into the ground and fill the hole with concrete, why not just remove the wood and put an anchor on top? It will last much much longer.

What about coating the portion of the posts going into the ground with rubberized undercoating, or roll on bedliner like I mentioned earlier? Or some other material that would protect the wood?

[8mpg]

What about coating the portion of the posts going into the ground with rubberized undercoating, or roll on bedliner like I mentioned earlier? Or some other material that would protect the wood?

You can try... my neighbor is a fan of dipping the posts in tar. The question again is why do you want to? Add the extra bag of concrete and keep the wood out of the ground. The posts will need to be concreted in anyways. Or use a metal post.

[juiceweezl]

You can try... my neighbor is a fan of dipping the posts in tar. The question again is why do you want to? Add the extra bag of concrete and keep the wood out of the ground. The posts will need to be concreted in anyways. Or use a metal post.

Lateral restraint. When you connect a post to the top of a concrete pier above the ground, you create a moment connection. If the structure moves at all laterally, the torsion there will be huge. Most bases aren't rated to resist that type of load. That's why you see people bury the post - the ground provides resistance to the moment. You can also do it with knee bracing.

You can buy posts already treated for ground contact (or more if you want). No real need to do more to them unless you make cuts. Then, you need to field treat the cuts.

The big thing you want to make sure you do if you bury the post and enclose it is to make sure water can escape. It will run down the post, so you need either a hole through the footing or gravel or something to let the water escape so the post isn't always sitting in water.

[asphaltjunkie]

Lateral restraint. When you connect a post to the top of a concrete pier above the ground, you create a moment connection. If the structure moves at all laterally, the torsion there will be huge. Most bases aren't rated to resist that type of load. That's why you see people bury the post - the ground provides resistance to the moment. You can also do it with knee bracing.

You can buy posts already treated for ground contact (or more if you want). No real need to do more to them unless you make cuts. Then, you need to field treat the cuts.

The big thing you want to make sure you do if you bury the post and enclose it is to make sure water can escape. It will run down the post, so you need either a hole through the footing or gravel or something to let the water escape so the post isn't always sitting in water.

When you say gravel, I'm assuming you mean a nice layer of gravel at the base of the hole, then set the post in concrete on top? Also, I read that after everything has set that it's best to use cement to build up a slope around the post so water will drain away and not pool up by the post.
Regarding diameter and depth of the hole, I was thinking 12"x24". Too much? Not enough?

[8mpg]

When you say gravel, I'm assuming you mean a nice layer of gravel at the base of the hole, then set the post in concrete on top? Also, I read that after everything has set that it's best to use cement to build up a slope around the post so water will drain away and not pool up by the post.
Regarding diameter and depth of the hole, I was thinking 12"x24". Too much? Not enough?

Standard post setting is 3x diameter of your post and minimum 1/3 of the post buried in the ground. Gravel in the bottom of the hole, set the post, then concrete it.