Tornado Shelter

[ceyko]

In ward swinging doors. Crap, I don't think a single one has that, that I've looked at so far, but it makes sense.

[red95gts]

Im on the far north side of Edmond and the quote came from my septic company - Red Dirt Septic. The door does swing outwards on their unit....

I haven't done any real research yet, just got that price during a conversation with their ops mgr - who happens to be my neighbor.

[juiceweezl]

In ward swinging doors. Crap, I don't think a single one has that, that I've looked at so far, but it makes sense.

That's why it's good to research. Staying safe in the room/shelter is important, but so is getting out after the storm. The fact that the doors must be in swings is what makes it so hard to pass the test. I've personally seen $2K retail price doors crumble when a 7 feet long 2x4 gets blasted at it. I've seen prototypes that belong on the space station look like origami after 2 shots. Even bank vault type doors have failed the test. It's crazy tough to pass.

[ceyko]

That's why it's good to research. Staying safe in the room/shelter is important, but so is getting out after the storm. The fact that the doors must be in swings is what makes it so hard to pass the test. I've personally seen $2K retail price doors crumble when a 7 feet long 2x4 gets blasted at it. I've seen prototypes that belong on the space station look like origami after 2 shots. Even bank vault type doors have failed the test. It's crazy tough to pass.

Okay, I've been trying to digest some of the information in the links. I'll admit most of it is a few feet above my head at this point and I'm all over the place trying to figure out the different standards - which then has me looking up stuff on those standards...etc.

Anyway, just my general questions will be below. This is turning out to be a lot more thorough process than I though. The truth of the matter is though, I have to balance budget with function. It may end up that I can only afford to put some steel/concrete thing in the ground though.

1. Any recommended people to build an indoor shelter in an existing house? I know my budget but that would be where I have to start. I'd need a "turn-key" solution for either in or outdoors.

2. I like the idea of an indoor shelter - not only for the reasons you mentioned - but it's at least climate controlled, drier, easier to wire up for a TV to watch the weather on and so forth. My concern would be similar to the in ground shelter. What if the house collapses/is destroy/ripped up around you? Are they designed against that? The small amount of research I've done so far, it does look like the walls/ceilings are anchored into the foundation. Just not sure if it can hold the weight of a whole second story falling.

3. In regards to the doors, I get it on the surface and never really considered it flooding - which I suppose is really possible. Is this considered a major issue?

4. I'm going to read like I said, but only have so much time - do you know if they have a dummy version of this stuff by any chance? I'm going to use the standards and check out videos to help along - just checking to see if there is a known, resource for general homeowner/consumer resource.

5. Biggest one I need, is like #1 - references to known goods. I'm randomly email people and since this is fairly regional there are not a lot of reviews and such for companies. I'd really like to price and indoor version or at least a good faith estimate. If it's clearly out of the ballpark - I'll need a decent in ground one.

6. For in ground, trying to figure out if steel, concrete, or fiberglass is the way to go.

7. Is the NSSA the defacto type standard/committee/group for these things?

Again, appreciate it and I know these questions are real low level. However, if a couple grand gets more security/safety it is worth it. Now I have to understand these things a little better before I decide.

Thanks

[ceyko]

http://www.nssa.cc/Original%20Power%20Point%20Files/Waller%20photos.pdf

This answers quite a bit for anyone interested about safe rooms.

[juiceweezl]

1. Any recommended people to build an indoor shelter in an existing house? I know my budget but that would be where I have to start. I'd need a "turn-key" solution for either in or outdoors.

The guys like Storm Blocker and DuPont all have certified installers, so contact them. Since they are selling a licensed, certified, and tested product, it needs to have an installer trained to put it together the right way. Don't sell yourself short though on a self-install. If you can get hold of the panels from someone like Storm Blocker, you can do the install yourself for the most part. You can rent a hammer drill and put the anchors in the slab for the wall, reinforce the studs where needed, and then screw the panels to the studs. The ceiling framing and mounting the door would be the toughest part. Still, check with the manufacturers. Even the guys that do the steel rooms in your garage have certified installers.

2. I like the idea of an indoor shelter - not only for the reasons you mentioned - but it's at least climate controlled, drier, easier to wire up for a TV to watch the weather on and so forth. My concern would be similar to the in ground shelter. What if the house collapses/is destroy/ripped up around you? Are they designed against that? The small amount of research I've done so far, it does look like the walls/ceilings are anchored into the foundation. Just not sure if it can hold the weight of a whole second story falling.

The indoor shelters that have passed the test standard have to be able to withstand a certain amount of axial capacity as well. This would be the structure collapsing in on itself. Years ago someone told me that it would basically have to be able to support a small car sitting on the ceiling. If a second story were to collapse, the majority of the weight would go down and away from the safe room. I'll use my house for example. My upstairs is about 650 square feet. If I turned a bathroom into a safe room, I'd have approximately 75 square feet of safe room underneath the upstairs. Only a small amount of construction materials could actually end up on top of the safe room. The bigger risk, and what it's designed to withstand, is impact from something like a tree or other debris (including upper story).

3. In regards to the doors, I get it on the surface and never really considered it flooding - which I suppose is really possible. Is this considered a major issue?

Flooding should always be considered. To what extent depends on the circumstances. Will you be below the flood plain? Will you be at the bottom of a hill, etc.? What if there is a water main in the ground above your shelter or a fireplug that gets struck and begins flowing water rapidly? It may not apply if you're in a rural setting, but it certainly could in a development. Water could come rushing down upon the shelter. It would truly suck if someones car was blown into a fire plug only to end up on top of the door to the shelter with no way to open it. It's just like zombies -- you have to think worst case scenario. The bigger concern though is opening the doors to get out. If the door is mostly (but not entirely) blocked, you'll always have a way out with in swing doors. Flooding should be taken into consideration only if water supply is close by.

4. I'm going to read like I said, but only have so much time - do you know if they have a dummy version of this stuff by any chance? I'm going to use the standards and check out videos to help along - just checking to see if there is a known, resource for general homeowner/consumer resource.

The NSSA website and FEMA would be the best place to find information for consumers. ICC (International Code Council -- the people who write the building codes) has a published standard titled: ICC/NSSA Standard for the Design and Construction of Storm Shelters -- ICC 500-2008. Here's a link to it on their site, but I bet you can find it free somewhere: http://www.iccsafe.org/Store/Pages/P...-P-2008-000001 That's the standard we reference when we mention storm shelters in our classes. It outlines items like pressure testing, missile impact testing, etc. It's pretty technical, but worth reading if you really want to understand everything about shelters. I'd stay with the NSSA site and recommended documents though for a consumer basis. The FLASH organization from their links is another good resource. Here's their website: http://www.flash.org/

5. Biggest one I need, is like #1 - references to known goods. I'm randomly email people and since this is fairly regional there are not a lot of reviews and such for companies. I'd really like to price and indoor version or at least a good faith estimate. If it's clearly out of the ballpark - I'll need a decent in ground one.

Your best bet is to contact the guys like StormBlocker and DuPont directly and get in touch with their installers. Also look to see if there is any FEMA money to be had for adding one. The manufacturers should be able to help you with that.

6. For in ground, trying to figure out if steel, concrete, or fiberglass is the way to go.

My personal opinion, and that's all it is, is to use concrete or CMU if you do an in ground shelter. The only thing you're trying to resist there with the walls is the pressure from the ground against the structure. The roof/door becomes the area of concern for windborne debris and suction pressures.

7. Is the NSSA the defacto type standard/committee/group for these things?

Yes, they are the group to reference for information on manufacturers, codes, FEMA grants, etc.

Again, appreciate it and I know these questions are real low level. However, if a couple grand gets more security/safety it is worth it. Now I have to understand these things a little better before I decide.

Thanks

No problem on the questions, and they're not low level. Safe rooms are something still relatively new to everyone despite being a viable add-on to new construction for almost a decade. The big thing that is unknown is the concept of turning a functional area of the house into a safe room. For years people have been giving up part of their garage to put a steel room in it. Now, for a few thousand more (if that), you have the option of turning functioning space in the house into a safe room. This is great for resale and also for peace of mind. Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

[juiceweezl]

http://www.nssa.cc/Original%20Power%...r%20photos.pdf

This answers quite a bit for anyone interested about safe rooms.

The rooms have come a long, long way since the pictures in that presentation. We used to have one of those in our warehouse for instructional purposes. What most people do now is install the heavy door and just leave it opened all the way. They install a second, standard door to the closet that swings outward. Now it doesn't have that "institutional" look to it and the door will match others in the house. It's a good presentation though.

[fordracing19]

Might look into icf safe rooms. We are looking at building an icf house and it will have a safe room as the master closet.

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[red95gts]

Great info.... Thanks for your time!

[juiceweezl]

Might look into icf safe rooms. We are looking at building an icf house and it will have a safe room as the master closet.

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You don't need a safe room if you have an ICF house. The entire house is a safe room. The only thing to worry about there is making sure the roof structure to the safe room area can support the weight of something collapsing on it. As long as you had an interior room with no windows, you won't even need the door to be safe room rated.

The only problem with ICF construction though is the cost for residential purposes and not many people are doing it here. Further north it's gaining in popularity because of the energy savings.

[juiceweezl]

Great info.... Thanks for your time!

If you're referring to me, you're welcome. I, like so many here, am happy to fill up threads with posts. This just happens to be something that I can post about in a knowledgeable and relevant way.

[fordracing19]

You don't need a safe room if you have an ICF house. The entire house is a safe room. The only thing to worry about there is making sure the roof structure to the safe room area can support the weight of something collapsing on it. As long as you had an interior room with no windows, you won't even need the door to be safe room rated.

The only problem with ICF construction though is the cost for residential purposes and not many people are doing it here. Further north it's gaining in popularity because of the energy savings.

Only the exterior walls are icf so the closet will be icf all the way around with a concrete ceiling and a 14g steel door with 3 deadbolts.

[juiceweezl]

Only the exterior walls are icf so the closet will be icf all the way around with a concrete ceiling and a 14g steel door with 3 deadbolts.

Even better, but probably unnecessary. Still, since it's just a closet, it's easy to go ahead and form/pour it while doing the other walls. Make sure the ceiling is rated as well.

FWIW, if I were building a house today, it would be first floor ICF and second floor cold formed steel studs with a wood truss roof and unvented attic. It would cost more to build, but it would be efficient and last.

[Darren M]

After the recent Tornado in Granbury and then the ones in Oklahoma today, my wife is REALLY nervous and wanted me to research this exact subject. So, I resurrect this thread to find out where you were at on this project. Did it ever come to fruition? I'm TEMPTED to try and get a concrete pad + in ground emergency room at the same time in my back yard.

[ceyko]

We're still trying to figure it out. Between property lines and trees, it's hard to figure out how to get gear/equipment in the back yard without completely destroying my property.

I will say, be wary of some of those companies out there. You'll see everything from junk, to decent shelters that they want 15K for installed.

Also, my research found that now is a bad buying time. They seem to inflate their prices and all the other jazz. I'm settling just on an old school, inground shelter via a dude on craigslist