No thread on the army kill squad?

[sc281]

That's attrition. That's not how Sun Tzu operated. It's been proven to fail, time and again.

Actually, that could be interpreted as Sun Tzu. You also have to take into context that Sun Tzu was fighting war from an inferior position, not the superior; so a lot of his quotes what the Insurgent should be doing against the larger aggressor. (Which unfortunately fits our situation to a fucking T in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

The (Old) American Way of going into Battle with overwhelming force and completely obliterating the enemy's ability to make war in a single strike is very Tzusian. We are very good at this, even today, but it's the whole "Nation building" bullshit that fucks us every time.

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Short, brutal campaigns also minimize casualties to your men, thereby saving your Army's most precious resource, fostering loyalty throughout the chain of command, and fulfilling another Tzusian principle.

"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

The current BS rules of Engagement do the exact opposite of the preceding statement, and violate a key principle of Sun Tzu

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey; This is called hobbling the army. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army; This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


The way we fight these wars today can be summed up with this quote.

No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique.
- Sun Tzu quotes

[Forever_frost]

Calling BULLSHIT on Rolling Stone
Share

29 March 2011

Seldom do I waste time with rebutting articles, and especially not from publications like Rolling Stone. Today, numerous people sent links to the latest Rolling Stone tripe. The story is titled “THE KILL TEAM, THE FULL STORY.” It should be titled: “BULLSHIT, from Rolling Stone.”

The story—not really an “article”—covers Soldiers from 5/2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT) in Afghanistan. A handful of Soldiers were accused of murder. It does in fact appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditated murder. I was embedded with the 5/2 SBCT and was afforded incredible access to the brigade by the Commander, Colonel Harry Tunnell, and the brigade Command Sergeant Major, Robb Prosser. I know Robb from Iraq. Colonel Tunnell had been shot in Iraq.

The brigade gave me open access. I could go anywhere, anytime, so long as I could find a ride, which never was a problem beyond normal combat problems. If they had something to hide, it was limited and I didn’t find it. I was not with the Soldiers accused of murder and had no knowledge of this. It is important to note that the murder allegations were not discovered by media vigilance, but by, for instance, at least one Soldier in that tiny unit who was appalled by the behavior. A brigade is a big place with thousands of Soldiers, and in Afghanistan they were spread thinly across several provinces because we decided to wage war with too few troops. Those Soldiers accused of being involved in (or who should have been knowledgeable of) the murders could fit into a minivan. You would need ten 747s for the rest of the Brigade who did their duty. I was with many other Soldiers from 5/2 SBCT. My overall impression was very positive. After scratching my memory for negative impressions from 5/2 Soldiers, I can’t think of any, actually, other than the tiny Kill Team who, to my knowledge, I never set eyes upon.

The online edition of the Rolling Stone story contains a section with a video called “Motorcycle Kill,” which includes our Soldiers gunning down Taliban who were speeding on a motorcycle toward our guys. These Soldiers were also with 5/2 SBCT, far away from the “Kill Team” later accused of the murders. Rolling Stone commits a literary “crime” by deceptively entwining this normal combat video with the Kill Team story. The Taliban on the motorcycle were killed during an intense operation in the Arghandab near Kandahar City. People who have been to the Arghandab realize the extreme danger there. The Soviets got beaten horribly in the Arghandab, despite throwing everything including the Soviet kitchen sink into the battle that lasted over a month. Others fared little better. To my knowledge, 5/2 and supporting units were the first ever to take Arghandab, and these two dead Taliban were part of that process.

The killing of the armed Taliban on the motorcycle was legal and within the rules of engagement. Law and ROE are related but separate matters. In any case, the killing was well within both the law and ROE. The Taliban on the back of the motorcycle raised his rifle to fire at our Soldiers but the rifle did not fire. I talked at length with several of the Soldiers who were there and they gave me the video. There was nothing to hide. I didn’t even know about the story until they told me. It can be good for Soldiers to shoot and share videos because it provides instant replay and lessons learned. When they gave me the video and further explained what happened, I found the combat so normal that I didn’t even bother publishing it, though I should have because that little shooting of the two Taliban was the least of the accomplishments of these Soldiers, and it rid the Arghandab of two Taliban.

Some people commented that our Soldiers used excessive force by firing too many bullets. Hogwash. And besides, they were trying to kill each other. Anyone who has seen much combat with our weak M-4 rifles realizes that one shot is generally not enough, and the Taliban were speeding at them on a motorbike, which very often are prepared as suicide bombs. If that motorcycle had been a bomb, as they often are, and got inside the group of Soldiers and exploded, they could all have been killed. Just yesterday, in Paktika, three suicide attackers came in, guns blazing, and detonated a huge truck bomb. Depending on which reports you read, about twenty workers were killed and about another fifty wounded.

In the video, our guys would have been justified in firing twice that many bullets, but at some point you are wasting ammo and that is a combat sin. The Soldiers involved in that shooting told me that the Taliban on the back may have pulled the AK trigger, but the loaded AK did not fire because the Taliban didn’t have a round in the chamber. Attention to detail. At least one also had an ammunition rack strapped across his chest.

This could go on for pages, but Rolling Stone is not worth it, and thrashing them might only build their readership. I’ve found in the past that boycotts work. I led a boycott against one magazine and it went bankrupt. It’s doubtful that Rolling Stone will go bankrupt for its sins, but you can cost them money not by boycotting their magazine, but by boycotting their advertisers. That hurts. Just pick an advertiser whose products you already buy, boycott it, and tell the advertiser why you are not buying their product.

Now I’ve got to get back to work.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

[SS Junk]

Link to Rolling Stone article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/photos/the-kill-team-photos-20110327/0602176

Link to video:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ba5_1301037553

WW for both you fucking zipper heads.

[Forever_frost]

RS can kiss my ass. Left wing liberal trash

[KBScobravert]

My disclaimer first. I have not read the Rolling Stone because I do not consider them anything more than fiction anyways. This guy comes off as an opurtunist, sort of. Read my comments in the bold below.

Calling BULLSHIT on Rolling Stone
Share

29 March 2011

Seldom do I waste time with rebutting articles, and especially not from publications like Rolling Stone. Today, numerous people sent links to the latest Rolling Stone tripe. The story is titled “THE KILL TEAM, THE FULL STORY.” It should be titled: “BULLSHIT, from Rolling Stone.”

The story—not really an “article”—covers Soldiers from 5/2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT) in Afghanistan. Does the Rolling Stone say anything about the 5/2 or what unit it was these guys were from? A handful of Soldiers were accused of murder. It does in fact appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditated murder. These two sentences say all this guy needs to say the rest that follows is blowhard info. Describe the differnce between "a handful" and "a tiny" group. To me a handful would be 5 and tiny group would be 3; open to interpretation not real factual reporting on this guys behave. I was embedded with the 5/2 SBCT and was afforded incredible access to the brigade by the Commander, Colonel Harry Tunnell, and the brigade Command Sergeant Major, Robb Prosser. I know Robb from Iraq. Good for you, know one is saying the CSM or the COL are at fault. Again what does this have to do with the fact?Colonel Tunnell had been shot in Iraq.

The brigade gave me open access. "Hey sir we are gonna go out and shoot some civies. Care to join?" Well no shit you never heard that! I could go anywhere, anytime, so long as I could find a ride, which never was a problem beyond normal combat problems. If they had something to hide, it was limited and I didn’t find it. Really? Now go back to the first para "it does appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditated murder" My guess is, they hid it from you good sir. I was not with the Soldiers accused of murder and had no knowledge of this. ... and there it is "I know nothing and saw nothing and don't know the accused who I have said it does appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditate murder." It is important to note that the murder allegations were not discovered by media vigilance, but by, for instance, at least one Soldier in that tiny unit who was appalled by the behavior. Introduction of the whistle blower, his father and CID and hence the reason Stars and Stripes did an article about this months ago. A brigade is a big place with thousands of Soldiers, and in Afghanistan they were spread thinly across several provinces because we decided to wage war with too few troops. No shit really? Those Soldiers accused of being involved in (or who should have been knowledgeable of) the murders could fit into a minivan. You would need ten 747s for the rest of the Brigade who did their duty. I was with many other Soldiers from 5/2 SBCT. My overall impression was very positive. Of course it was positive. For the 99.9% of our men and women are good people trying to do the right thing, protect their left and right and stay alive.After scratching my memory for negative impressions from 5/2 Soldiers, I can’t think of any, actually, other than the tiny Kill Team who, to my knowledge, I never set eyes upon.How many times is he going to establish that in the same article

Finally some meat and potatoes
The online edition of the Rolling Stone story contains a section with a video called “Motorcycle Kill,” which includes our Soldiers gunning down Taliban who were speeding on a motorcycle toward our guys. These Soldiers were also with 5/2 SBCT, far away from the “Kill Team” later accused of the murders. Rolling Stone commits a literary “crime” by deceptively entwining this normal combat video with the Kill Team story. I find that very believable hence the reason I never read the Rolling Stone spinThe Taliban on the motorcycle were killed during an intense operation in the Arghandab near Kandahar City. People who have been to the Arghandab realize the extreme danger there. Good action on them. See gun, shoot motherfuckerThe Soviets got beaten horribly in the Arghandab, despite throwing everything including the Soviet kitchen sink into the battle that lasted over a month. Others fared little better. To my knowledge, 5/2 and supporting units were the first ever to take Arghandab, and these two dead Taliban were part of that process. That is because we are a superior force to the Soviets and he is supprised.

The killing of the armed Taliban on the motorcycle was legal and within the rules of engagement. Law and ROE are related but separate matters. In any case, the killing was well within both the law and ROE. The Taliban on the back of the motorcycle raised his rifle to fire at our Soldiers but the rifle did not fire. I talked at length with several of the Soldiers who were there and they gave me the video. There was nothing to hide. I didn’t even know about the story until they told me. It can be good for Soldiers to shoot and share videos because it provides instant replay and lessons learned. When they gave me the video and further explained what happened, I found the combat so normal that I didn’t even bother publishing it, though I should have because that little shooting of the two Taliban was the least of the accomplishments of these Soldiers, and it rid the Arghandab of two Taliban.

Some people commented that our Soldiers used excessive force by firing too many bullets. Who cares they were still moving I presume or posed a threat so the lead kept coming. So? Maybe I am not seeing or hearing the "some people"s commentsHogwash. And besides, they were trying to kill each other. Anyone who has seen much combat with our weak M-4 rifles realizes that one shot is generally not enough, and the Taliban were speeding at them on a motorbike, which very often are prepared as suicide bombs. If that motorcycle had been a bomb, as they often are, and got inside the group of Soldiers and exploded, they could all have been killed. no need to keep defending them, we established it was a good action. But it is more he can publish.Just yesterday, in Paktika, three suicide attackers came in, guns blazing, and detonated a huge truck bomb. Depending on which reports you read, about twenty workers were killed and about another fifty wounded.Yep and the compound had nothing to do with the US military, ISAF or any coaliiton force. It was a road construction comapny. A soft target with no ROE and still let themselves get fucked off. Our guys had the same thing happen at FOB Zerok and we won. Truck detonated off the FOB after the tower put all 200 rounds of 7.62 from his ammo can into the cab. The truck came to a halt 75m from the base and after it sat there for 5 minutes it exploded unexpectedly. The base was the victim of a fierce complex attack shortly after and a few troopers gave the ultimate when a mortar landed in the mortar pit setting off ready rounds and then the small ASP. It was a nasty fight. But our Guys came out way on top. I was there two days later and have a nice group of photos....sorry to deviate

In the video, our guys would have been justified in firing twice that many bullets, but at some point you are wasting ammo and that is a combat sin. The Soldiers involved in that shooting told me that the Taliban on the back may have pulled the AK trigger, but the loaded AK did not fire because the Taliban didn’t have a round in the chamber. Attention to detail. At least one also had an ammunition rack strapped across his chest.

This could go on for pages, but Rolling Stone is not worth it, and thrashing them might only build their readership. I’ve found in the past that boycotts work. I led a boycott against one magazine and it went bankrupt. It’s doubtful that Rolling Stone will go bankrupt for its sins, but you can cost them money not by boycotting their magazine, but by boycotting their advertisers. That hurts. Just pick an advertiser whose products you already buy, boycott it, and tell the advertiser why you are not buying their product.

so he doesn't say anything about the allegations of the few and the conviction of the one.

Now I’ve got to get back to work.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

My $.02

[Forever_frost]

His main point was Rolling Stone put up a video of a clean kill on a story of a bad one. Trying to make our troops look bad.

[KBScobravert]

His main point was Rolling Stone put up a video of a clean kill on a story of a bad one. Trying to make our troops look bad.

Roger

[YALE]

The individual action, maybe, but overwhelming destruction in response to an attack was not his gig. He recognized that taking the most territory with the least amount of resources was the best way to go.

Actually, that could be interpreted as Sun Tzu. You also have to take into context that Sun Tzu was fighting war from an inferior position, not the superior; so a lot of his quotes what the Insurgent should be doing against the larger aggressor. (Which unfortunately fits our situation to a fucking T in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

The (Old) American Way of going into Battle with overwhelming force and completely obliterating the enemy's ability to make war in a single strike is very Tzusian. We are very good at this, even today, but it's the whole "Nation building" bullshit that fucks us every time.

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Short, brutal campaigns also minimize casualties to your men, thereby saving your Army's most precious resource, fostering loyalty throughout the chain of command, and fulfilling another Tzusian principle.

"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

The current BS rules of Engagement do the exact opposite of the preceding statement, and violate a key principle of Sun Tzu

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey; This is called hobbling the army. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army; This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


The way we fight these wars today can be summed up with this quote.

No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique.
- Sun Tzu quotes

[SMEGMA STENCH]

I searched and there is nothing in any Army manual that gives the troop the idea that he should be cutting off fingers. Did you find that information in a manual that I may have never seen somewhere?

Completely irrelevant. It could say that they're supposed to burn them all alive, and you'd have that one bad egg that was just whipping them to death. Its gonna happen. Nothing in the world can stop it. That's why its called war, not happy fun time.

[KBScobravert]

Completely irrelevant. It could say that they're supposed to burn them all alive, and you'd have that one bad egg that was just whipping them to death. Its gonna happen. Nothing in the world can stop it. That's why its called war, not happy fun time.

It is 100% relevant. We are not at war with the Afghan people. We are at war with those who wish to destabilize the Afghan country and who present a clear and present danger to the US or Coalition forces. Wanna mag dump into a insurgent who is assaulting your OP? Knock yourself out.

Do you base your theory off any actual personal knowledge of war? If so please let me know how much time you have spent in a war time enviroment. Have you ever been trained as a US fighting service member? Or are you just going off what you see in movies and on the news?

[SMEGMA STENCH]

Ok granted I don't condone it. But you're wasting your time giving a damn, cause its always been this way, and it will always be this way. Period. Again, not happy fun time. War.

[KBScobravert]

Ok granted I don't condone it. But you're wasting your time giving a damn, cause its always been this way, and it will always be this way. Period. Again, not happy fun time. War.

I have devoted a great deal of my life in supporting what we do here not to include the 4 yrs active duty Marines; most of that time deployed. I have put a lot of my life on hold to do this job over here. Ask my wife who cries everytime I have to fly back at the end of my Leave. I work over 90 hours a week nonstop without weekends off or even a day off for 3-4 months supporting our troops. Yes I am paid for my efforts but ensuring that our company provides for them is my main goal. After 5 years at 90 hours a week I would estimate that I have dedicated over 10 years of my life to it. It upsets me to see the guys/gals that I am supporting go against their core values.

Trust me I know war is not a happy fun time. My colleagues here who know me personally in the States know that I am a totally different person at home than I am here at work in Afghanistan

I give very much a damn. Sorry. When I stop giving a damn I need to come home and get another job and let someone else take my place.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

Supporters (even if only in principle) of those who attacked us are not covered by my list of core values. I'm just not naive enough to think those zealots are not supporters. You have to cut a line in the sand somewhere. And whoever crosses it gets killed.

[KBScobravert]

Supporters (even if only in principle) of those who attacked us are not covered by my list of core values. I'm just not naive enough to think those zealots are not supporters. You have to cut a line in the sand somewhere. And whoever crosses it gets killed.

Like I said we are at war with the ACF not the Afghan people. If that were the case we could stand on the walls and shoot until the bodies pilled up. Yes there are plenty of ACF that are Afghani but you would be very suprised how many are not.

I agree that if we can show that you support the actions of the ACF then you are subject to proper punishment porpotianent to the threat they pose. We capture a ton of these guys if nothing else for intel gathering to lead to bigger fish. These are eventually "tagged" and released. That is as far as I will go on that.

The ACF pays pretty well for you to hold bomb making material for them. When you are a farmer with income around a few hundred a year $50 is good money to stash some stuff.....until you get caught that is. Now bomb makers/planters are handeled differently.

[V8tt]

Fellow Devil Dog here. Thanks for yours and all others service over there. What a shitty situation you guys/gals have endured over the last ten years. I got out in '99, right before this shit al started. Let us know when you get back..I'll be first in line to buy the beers. What was your MOS? 5811 here...don't hate on me.