No thread on the army kill squad?

[Forever_frost]

Calling BULLSHIT on Rolling Stone
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29 March 2011

Seldom do I waste time with rebutting articles, and especially not from publications like Rolling Stone. Today, numerous people sent links to the latest Rolling Stone tripe. The story is titled “THE KILL TEAM, THE FULL STORY.” It should be titled: “BULLSHIT, from Rolling Stone.”

The story—not really an “article”—covers Soldiers from 5/2 Stryker Brigade Combat Team (SBCT) in Afghanistan. A handful of Soldiers were accused of murder. It does in fact appear that a tiny group of rogues committed premeditated murder. I was embedded with the 5/2 SBCT and was afforded incredible access to the brigade by the Commander, Colonel Harry Tunnell, and the brigade Command Sergeant Major, Robb Prosser. I know Robb from Iraq. Colonel Tunnell had been shot in Iraq.

The brigade gave me open access. I could go anywhere, anytime, so long as I could find a ride, which never was a problem beyond normal combat problems. If they had something to hide, it was limited and I didn’t find it. I was not with the Soldiers accused of murder and had no knowledge of this. It is important to note that the murder allegations were not discovered by media vigilance, but by, for instance, at least one Soldier in that tiny unit who was appalled by the behavior. A brigade is a big place with thousands of Soldiers, and in Afghanistan they were spread thinly across several provinces because we decided to wage war with too few troops. Those Soldiers accused of being involved in (or who should have been knowledgeable of) the murders could fit into a minivan. You would need ten 747s for the rest of the Brigade who did their duty. I was with many other Soldiers from 5/2 SBCT. My overall impression was very positive. After scratching my memory for negative impressions from 5/2 Soldiers, I can’t think of any, actually, other than the tiny Kill Team who, to my knowledge, I never set eyes upon.

The online edition of the Rolling Stone story contains a section with a video called “Motorcycle Kill,” which includes our Soldiers gunning down Taliban who were speeding on a motorcycle toward our guys. These Soldiers were also with 5/2 SBCT, far away from the “Kill Team” later accused of the murders. Rolling Stone commits a literary “crime” by deceptively entwining this normal combat video with the Kill Team story. The Taliban on the motorcycle were killed during an intense operation in the Arghandab near Kandahar City. People who have been to the Arghandab realize the extreme danger there. The Soviets got beaten horribly in the Arghandab, despite throwing everything including the Soviet kitchen sink into the battle that lasted over a month. Others fared little better. To my knowledge, 5/2 and supporting units were the first ever to take Arghandab, and these two dead Taliban were part of that process.

The killing of the armed Taliban on the motorcycle was legal and within the rules of engagement. Law and ROE are related but separate matters. In any case, the killing was well within both the law and ROE. The Taliban on the back of the motorcycle raised his rifle to fire at our Soldiers but the rifle did not fire. I talked at length with several of the Soldiers who were there and they gave me the video. There was nothing to hide. I didn’t even know about the story until they told me. It can be good for Soldiers to shoot and share videos because it provides instant replay and lessons learned. When they gave me the video and further explained what happened, I found the combat so normal that I didn’t even bother publishing it, though I should have because that little shooting of the two Taliban was the least of the accomplishments of these Soldiers, and it rid the Arghandab of two Taliban.

Some people commented that our Soldiers used excessive force by firing too many bullets. Hogwash. And besides, they were trying to kill each other. Anyone who has seen much combat with our weak M-4 rifles realizes that one shot is generally not enough, and the Taliban were speeding at them on a motorbike, which very often are prepared as suicide bombs. If that motorcycle had been a bomb, as they often are, and got inside the group of Soldiers and exploded, they could all have been killed. Just yesterday, in Paktika, three suicide attackers came in, guns blazing, and detonated a huge truck bomb. Depending on which reports you read, about twenty workers were killed and about another fifty wounded.

In the video, our guys would have been justified in firing twice that many bullets, but at some point you are wasting ammo and that is a combat sin. The Soldiers involved in that shooting told me that the Taliban on the back may have pulled the AK trigger, but the loaded AK did not fire because the Taliban didn’t have a round in the chamber. Attention to detail. At least one also had an ammunition rack strapped across his chest.

This could go on for pages, but Rolling Stone is not worth it, and thrashing them might only build their readership. I’ve found in the past that boycotts work. I led a boycott against one magazine and it went bankrupt. It’s doubtful that Rolling Stone will go bankrupt for its sins, but you can cost them money not by boycotting their magazine, but by boycotting their advertisers. That hurts. Just pick an advertiser whose products you already buy, boycott it, and tell the advertiser why you are not buying their product.

Now I’ve got to get back to work.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

[sc281]

That's attrition. That's not how Sun Tzu operated. It's been proven to fail, time and again.

Actually, that could be interpreted as Sun Tzu. You also have to take into context that Sun Tzu was fighting war from an inferior position, not the superior; so a lot of his quotes what the Insurgent should be doing against the larger aggressor. (Which unfortunately fits our situation to a fucking T in Iraq and Afghanistan.)

The (Old) American Way of going into Battle with overwhelming force and completely obliterating the enemy's ability to make war in a single strike is very Tzusian. We are very good at this, even today, but it's the whole "Nation building" bullshit that fucks us every time.

He who wishes to fight must first count the cost. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be dampened. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor dampened, your strength exhausted and your treasure spent, other chieftains will spring up to take advantage of your extremity. Then no man, however wise, will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue... In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Short, brutal campaigns also minimize casualties to your men, thereby saving your Army's most precious resource, fostering loyalty throughout the chain of command, and fulfilling another Tzusian principle.

"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys.
Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War

The current BS rules of Engagement do the exact opposite of the preceding statement, and violate a key principle of Sun Tzu

There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army: By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey; This is called hobbling the army. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army; This causes restlessness in the soldier's minds. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War


The way we fight these wars today can be summed up with this quote.

No leader should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no leader should fight a battle simply out of pique.
- Sun Tzu quotes

[Forever_frost]

I'm pretty sure that isn't in there. I've been looking through my old FM's.

[KBScobravert]

To this I would have to say something like

I mean seriously... what did you expect? Take it down to its simplest level. A bunch of guys with guns are going around telling a bunch of religious zealots what to do. Could there be any other outcome? Yeah, fingers are going to get cut off. Hell, they're going to get blown off. It all just comes to me a no surprise.

I searched and there is nothing in any Army manual that gives the troop the idea that he should be cutting off fingers. Did you find that information in a manual that I may have never seen somewhere?

[SMEGMA STENCH]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the 'prettiness' of war; collateral damage is entirely separate from what these soldiers did and what forever_frost is condoning. PTSD must be a real bitch, because his (those of several others in here) moral compass is way the fuck off.

To this I would have to say something like

I mean seriously... what did you expect? Take it down to its simplest level. A bunch of guys with guns are going around telling a bunch of religious zealots what to do. Could there be any other outcome? Yeah, fingers are going to get cut off. Hell, they're going to get blown off. It all just comes to me a no surprise.

[YALE]

Precisely. If we take fire from a building, we should level the building, no questions asked. Call in an air strike and eventually they'll stop doing it. If someone points a rifle at you, shoot them first, shoot them last and shoot them until they are no longer a threat.

Call it the head injury or call it the PTSD or maybe even the infantry training, but I am a firm believer in not defeating our enemies, not nation building, but destroying them..

That's attrition. That's not how Sun Tzu operated. It's been proven to fail, time and again.

[YALE]

Actually, I was referring to Luke. I don't think killing civilians is fine. But I do think considering someone a civilian when they shoot at you and when you get close and they throw their weapons down yelling "Civilian!" is Bullshit. Put a bullet in their head and move on. War should be waged as Sun Tzu said it should. Swift and terrible

None of our current wars are being fought as Sun Tzu would fight them. That's a whole other thread, but I'm really frustrated with how poorly we're fighting these wars. It's not the best use of our fighting men.

[Forever_frost]

Precisely. If we take fire from a building, we should level the building, no questions asked. Call in an air strike and eventually they'll stop doing it. If someone points a rifle at you, shoot them first, shoot them last and shoot them until they are no longer a threat.

Call it the head injury or call it the PTSD or maybe even the infantry training, but I am a firm believer in not defeating our enemies, not nation building, but destroying them..

[KBScobravert]

Actually, I was referring to Luke. I don't think killing civilians is fine. But I do think considering someone a civilian when they shoot at you and when you get close and they throw their weapons down yelling "Civilian!" is Bullshit. Put a bullet in their head and move on. War should be waged as Sun Tzu said it should. Swift and terrible

Thank you for the post Forever_frost. I see that we agree on everything you stated I just want to make sure that "innocent" is a defined. I agree 100% that if I witnessed you actively engaging in an act of aggression my response will be proportionate plus some in an effort to defeat your act. If you are shooting at me and put your weapon down at your feet and your hands up; you are an enemy and a combatant, your weapon fell because I shot you.

War is waged against enemies and not civilians. War intentionally waged against civilians is an act of terrorism. That is the act of a coward.

[Forever_frost]

I am far from fresh out of high school, far from a liberal, I hate welfare, I hate illegal imigration into America, I did not vote for Obama, I hate big government and I am a proud American, a proud Texan, a proud Marine. What do you want to blame my views on?

I still stand behind the fact that killing civilians on purpose who posed no threat, can not have been proven to cause a threat, were not witnessed or proven to be in collaboration with Anti-Coalition Forces; is still murder and not consistent with the American fighting soldier. Anyone who thinks that it is justifiable for what this man was convicted for and the others accused of; please state your background in this reason. I would almost be willing to put next month's paycheck on the fact that no one on this board has spent as much time in this region dealing with these Afghanis, working with our troops, and actually having a finger on the pulse here.


The only incident I consider a casualty of war is when innocent civilians were not the intended target of our ordnance. Understand that civilians hosting a meeting of taliban figure heads are now in collaboration and therefore not innocent. Civilians paid to store caches are not innocent. Civilians paid to plant IEDs are far from fucking innocent. Civilians working on our bases drawing maps and conducting low level espionage and intelligence gathering is not innocent. Civilians caught with GSR on them or residue of bomb making materials, are not innocent. Civilians actively engaged in efforts to defraud the American Government and people are not innocent. Can you prove that any of the above was not the case of the Afghanis these American Soldiers plotted to kill?

Just as I will stand behind a troop, I will also stand behind an innocent civilian because 1) I am a human being 2) I am an American 3) I believe in being fair and impartial.

I write all this and feel this way as I am in Afghanistan right now. Where are you at where you think that killing civilians on purpose is justified? (that question is not directed to you Forest, I get your hate)

Actually, I was referring to Luke. I don't think killing civilians is fine. But I do think considering someone a civilian when they shoot at you and when you get close and they throw their weapons down yelling "Civilian!" is Bullshit. Put a bullet in their head and move on. War should be waged as Sun Tzu said it should. Swift and terrible

[KBScobravert]

I thought as much. He's fresh out of high school with all the ideology of a liberal. Dont' worry, he'll grow up. I hope. And if we weren't handing welfare out to illegals or handing out welfare at all (it's a violation of the constitution) then we wouldn't have near the issue on our debt.

I am far from fresh out of high school, far from a liberal, I hate welfare, I hate illegal imigration into America, I did not vote for Obama, I hate big government and I am a proud American, a proud Texan, a proud Marine. What do you want to blame my views on?

I still stand behind the fact that killing civilians on purpose who posed no threat, can not have been proven to cause a threat, were not witnessed or proven to be in collaboration with Anti-Coalition Forces; is still murder and not consistent with the American fighting soldier. Anyone who thinks that it is justifiable for what this man was convicted for and the others accused of; please state your background in this reason. I would almost be willing to put next month's paycheck on the fact that no one on this board has spent as much time in this region dealing with these Afghanis, working with our troops, and actually having a finger on the pulse here.


The only incident I consider a casualty of war is when innocent civilians were not the intended target of our ordnance. Understand that civilians hosting a meeting of taliban figure heads are now in collaboration and therefore not innocent. Civilians paid to store caches are not innocent. Civilians paid to plant IEDs are far from fucking innocent. Civilians working on our bases drawing maps and conducting low level espionage and intelligence gathering is not innocent. Civilians caught with GSR on them or residue of bomb making materials, are not innocent. Civilians actively engaged in efforts to defraud the American Government and people are not innocent. Can you prove that any of the above was not the case of the Afghanis these American Soldiers plotted to kill?

Just as I will stand behind a troop, I will also stand behind an innocent civilian because 1) I am a human being 2) I am an American 3) I believe in being fair and impartial.

I write all this and feel this way as I am in Afghanistan right now. Where are you at where you think that killing civilians on purpose is justified? (that question is not directed to you Forest, I get your hate)

[ceyko]

I thought as much. He's fresh out of high school with all the ideology of a liberal. Dont' worry, he'll grow up. I hope. And if we weren't handing welfare out to illegals or handing out welfare at all (it's a violation of the constitution) then we wouldn't have near the issue on our debt.

Yeah, just like the people who shop at the Galleria will grow up too.

In regards to Clinton, that dude was a genius of sorts. Hell, he went kicking and screaming into the Balkans (massive war crimes and such going on there).

1. I'm not sure I can blame him 100%, it was supposed to be a UN thing. Which as usual turns out to be mostly a US thing.
2. Even though he did not WANT to help them, they LOVED him. He was on billboards and everything. When Bush came in and gave it up to the EU they about rioted in the streets.

[ELVIS]

Chris= +1

Slowhand= -0

god bless.

[Forever_frost]

DUDE. You're a 20 year old dipshit stoner from Coppell who is living on mommy and dadddy's tit, and has NO real world life experience. You NEVER have anything positive to add to ANY thread. Just shit the fuck up and go away already. Fuck.

I thought as much. He's fresh out of high school with all the ideology of a liberal. Dont' worry, he'll grow up. I hope. And if we weren't handing welfare out to illegals or handing out welfare at all (it's a violation of the constitution) then we wouldn't have near the issue on our debt.

[YALE]

Whoa. What happened up in here?