Insane Clown Posse and ACLU sue FBI

[Maddhattter]

It doesn't work that way, and I am surprised you would attempt to claim it such.

Stevo

The report defines gangs as follows...

Street -

Street gangs are criminal organizations formed on the street operating throughout the United States.

Prison -

Prison gangs are criminal organizations that originated within the penal system and operate within correctional facilities throughout the United States, although released members may be operating on the street. Prison gangs are also self-perpetuating criminal entities that can continue their criminal operations outside the confines of the penal system.

Outlaw Motorcycle (OMGs) -

OMGs are organizations whose members use their motorcycle clubs as conduits for criminal enterprises. Although some law enforcement agencies regard only One Percenters as OMGs, the NGIC, for the purpose of this assessment, covers all OMG criminal organizations, including OMG support and puppet clubs.

One Percenter OMGs -

ATF defines One Percenters as any group of motorcyclists who have voluntarily made a commitment to band together to abide by their organization’s rules enforced by violence and who engage in activities that bring them and their club into repeated and serious conflict with society and the law. The group must be an ongoing organization, association of three (3) or more persons which have a common interest and/or activity characterized by the commission of or involvement in a pattern of criminal or delinquent conduct. ATF estimates there are approximately 300 One Percenter OMGs in the United States.

Neighborhood/Local -

Neighborhood or Local street gangs are confined to specific neighborhoods and jurisdictions and often imitate larger, more powerful national gangs. The primary purpose for many neighborhood gangs is drug distribution and sales.

They meet the criteria of a gang put forward by the report so, as far as the report is concerned, they are a gang.

I'm not saying I agree with the report's definitions, nor am I saying that it has properly classified what I feel is or isn't a gang. All I'm saying is, within the context of the report and how the report defines a gang, the subset of Juggalos meet the criteria.

So, yes. That's exactly how that works.

[ELVIS]

whats next.....the kiss army isnt really an army?

god bless.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Lucky for them that rooting around for days in your own feces, consuming Mountain Dew as your main dietary supplement, and collecting unemployment isn't yet considered organized crime by the FBI.

[VaderTT]

Faygo

[stevo]

The report defines gangs as follows...



They meet the criteria of a gang put forward by the report so, as far as the report is concerned, they are a gang.

I'm not saying I agree with the report's definitions, nor am I saying that it has properly classified what I feel is or isn't a gang. All I'm saying is, within the context of the report and how the report defines a gang, the subset of Juggalos meet the criteria.

So, yes. That's exactly how that works.

You keep citing their reports and their findings, and assuming that they are right. No matter how many times you parrot it, they cannot use what basically is profiling on one person to label someone else a gang member. Hell, you admitted it early on, then decided to attempt to use the same facts to contradict it. At this point, you are just spinning it in circles. They cannot label a whole group by pointing out a minority in that group. It does NOT work that way. You can claim your dislike of it all you want, that is not relevant. What you describe is not legal. It isn't even logical.

From the beginning, you have proved my point, not all of the people that they are labeling as gang members, are actually gang members. At this point you are just trying to spin it in different ways in an attempt to convince others that you are right. It just isn't so, but by all means keep at it.

Stevo

[Maddhattter]

You keep citing their reports and their findings,

Considering that the entire question here is whether or not the FBI should label them a gang and the FBI's label is going to be based on the FBI's definition of a gang, of course I am.

and assuming that they are right.

No, I'm not. They defined the word as they are using it. The report is internally consistent. Never once did I agree that the label should be applied, or that the FBI's definition of gang is accurate. I only stated that, within the context of their own definitions, the Juggalo's fit the part.

No matter how many times you parrot it, they cannot use what basically is profiling on one person to label someone else a gang member.

If they meet the stated criteria they sure can.

Hell, you admitted it early on, then decided to attempt to use the same facts to contradict it.

I agree, that a subset of the Juggalos commit crimes. They even admit that in their report. However, that doesn't change the fact that they meet the criteria that the report uses to identify what a gang is.

At this point, you are just spinning it in circles.

No, I'm not.

They cannot label a whole group by pointing out a minority in that group.

If it meets their criteria, they can. Does that make it right? Of course not. I never claimed it was right.

It does NOT work that way.

Again, it does.

You can claim your dislike of it all you want, that is not relevant.

My dislike of their definitions? Isn't that what's at the heart of this argument?

What you describe is not legal. It isn't even logical.

Never claimed it was legal, only that it's internally consistent. The Juggalos met all the criteria they laid out. There is not reason the report shouldn't call them a gang if they meed the requirements set out in the report.

From the beginning, you have proved my point, not all of the people that they are labeling as gang members, are actually gang members.

I never said they were. Only that, within the context of the report, the designation is accurate to the group.

At this point you are just trying to spin it in different ways in an attempt to convince others that you are right.

No, I'm not. Nor have you presented any actual rebuttals to anything I actually said.

It just isn't so, but by all means keep at it.

Stevo

Then why have you not been able to show how the Juggalos meet the requirements of a gang that are laid out in the report?

[Strychnine]

I know it's been slow around here, and you guys are probably itching for a good ol' fashioned multipage debate, but for fuck's sake...

Juggalos?

Juggalos are the chosen subject?

[stevo]

Wow, we know know you have been doing for the last hour or two. Instead of making a wall of text and spinning it a couple dozen ways like you have once again, I'll be brief.

“criminal street gang” means an ongoing group, club, organization, or association of 5 or more persons—
(A) that has as 1 of its primary purposes the commission of 1 or more of the criminal offenses described in subsection (c);
(B) the members of which engage, or have engaged within the past 5 years, in a continuing series of offenses described in subsection (c); and
(C) the activities of which affect interstate or foreign commerce.
“State” means a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.



(c) Offenses.— The offenses described in this section are—
(1) a Federal felony involving a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)) for which the maximum penalty is not less than 5 years;
(2) a Federal felony crime of violence that has as an element the use or attempted use of physical force against the person of another; and

It isn't an ongoing group, by your own submission, it is only a minority, a "subset", that is doing anything close to the above, and even that is questionable, as even that subset would have to be doing it in the name of the band. The FBI has even admitted that it isn't an ongoing group. It DOESN'T meet the criteria.

As mentioned before, your repeated use of the claim that the government saying it can do it as being the legal grounds for said government doing it just isn't so. It isn't in the law.

Stevo

[Maddhattter]

Wow, we know know you have been doing for the last hour or two. Instead of making a wall of text and spinning it a couple dozen ways like you have once again, I'll be brief.

That was nowhere near one of my walls of text.

“criminal street gang” means an ongoing group, club, organization, or association of 5 or more persons—
(A) that has as 1 of its primary purposes the commission of 1 or more of the criminal offenses described in subsection (c);
(B) the members of which engage, or have engaged within the past 5 years, in a continuing series of offenses described in subsection (c); and
(C) the activities of which affect interstate or foreign commerce.
“State” means a State of the United States, the District of Columbia, and any commonwealth, territory, or possession of the United States.



(c) Offenses.— The offenses described in this section are—
(1) a Federal felony involving a controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)) for which the maximum penalty is not less than 5 years;
(2) a Federal felony crime of violence that has as an element the use or attempted use of physical force against the person of another; and

Okay. Now, where does the report in question define gang in this way?

It isn't an ongoing group, by your own submission, it is only a minority, a "subset", that is doing anything close to the above, and even that is questionable, as even that subset would have to be doing it in the name of the band. The FBI has even admitted that it isn't an ongoing group. It DOESN'T meet the criteria.

Again, the report never defines a gang as such.

As mentioned before, your repeated use of the claim that the government saying it can do it as being the legal grounds for said government doing it just isn't so. It isn't in the law.

Stevo

I never said that the government has legal grounds for anything.

Again, you've not bothered to actually respond to anything I've actually said.

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yeah, this is one of those threads I'm just gonna stop reading.

[Baron Von Crowder]

I know it's been slow around here, and you guys are probably itching for a good ol' fashioned multipage debate, but for fuck's sake...

Juggalos?

Juggalos are the chosen subject?

what is a juggalo?

[Rick Modena]

I know it's been slow around here, and you guys are probably itching for a good ol' fashioned multipage debate, but for fuck's sake...

Juggalos?

Juggalos are the chosen subject?

Seems unfair, right? These bitches around here will argue about ANYTHING and beat that dead horse like theres no tomorrow...

lol @ juggalos, wait...... I think I might own a early CD, FUCK am I a Juggalo?

[stevo]

Jesus fuck...

That was nowhere near one of my walls of text.

If you say so.

Okay. Now, where does the report in question define gang in this way?

I quoted the federal law. 18 U.S.C. § 521

Again, the report never defines a gang as such.

I quoted the federal law. The FBI is bound by federal law.

I never said that the government has legal grounds for anything.

Hmm..

doesn't change the fact that, by the evidence that the FBI collected, the subset of Juggalos are a gang in the criminal sense and have the same name, identifying marks, and social groups as a larger subset of people.

Again, you've not bothered to actually respond to anything I've actually said.

I have stated the facts.

Stevo

[95DRGT]

Yeah, this is one of those threads I'm just gonna stop reading.

Yep ah fuck it man I'm going bowling moment

[Maddhattter]

I quoted the federal law. 18 U.S.C. § 521

I quoted the federal law. The FBI is bound by federal law.

Nowhere in the article, or any article on the topic that I can find, does it say that the FBI is stating they are a gang by the legal definition. So, in this context the legal definition is irrelevant.

Hmm..

Right. The report, which is based on the FBI's findings, declared then a gang, which the report defines as a criminal organization. That same report also explicitly states that the Juggalo gang it's referring to is a subset of the larger Juggalo community, with their criminal activity being the only way to identify them among the group.

No where does this report grant the FBI, or any other organization, the legal authority to do anything other than state that the group is a gang under the definition put forward by the report.

I have stated the facts.

Stevo

So, again, you've not actually rebutted anything I've said. You've not even attempted to counter any point that I've actually made.