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  • Economic GDP GROWS 4.1%... Oh wait, they made that up

    Big News! The Bureau of Economic Analysis says that the revised GDP numbers for the 3rd qtr of 2013 show that the economy grew at 4.1%




    Today's third and final revision of third-quarter GDP was a monster.

    And the report showed that the economic recovery is being driven by real people actually buying stuff.

    According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the economy surged 4.1% in the third quarter, which was much higher than the previous estimate of 3.6%.

    Economists are often quick to look at how inventories contributed to GDP. Indeed, last month saw a massive 1.7 percentage point contribution from inventory adjustments.

    So, real final sales — GDP growth less inventory changes — is considered a more reliable measure of economic health.

    Even this number looked good.

    Real final sales growth was revised up to 2.5% from last month's weak estimate of 1.9%.

    This was largely driven by personal consumption growth, which was revised up to 2.0% from 1.4%.

    Bloomberg Briefs economist Rich Yamarome has previously warned that a real final sales growth number below 2.0% portends a recession.

    Perhaps today's real final sales number suggests this recovery is for real.


    That sounds great until you look at articles from the Financial Times back in April showing that the same Bureau of Economic Analysis is going to revise ALL of their GDP numbers up by 3%

    Registration Required


    US economy takes Olympic leap to add 3% to GDP

    US economic history will be rewritten this week, as the most far-reaching methodological changes in years will add the equivalent of a country the size of Belgium to output in the world’s largest economy.

    The most important change by the Bureau of Economic Analysis, to be announced on Wednesday, will be to start counting spending on research, development and copyrights as investment, and reflect pension deficits for the first time. Combined they are expected to add 3 per cent to gross domestic product.

    The changes – the Olympic Games of economic numbers, taking place once every five years on average – is aimed at more accurately reflecting the modern economy and will make the US the first country to adopt a new international standard.

    “We are carrying these major changes all the way back in time – which for us means to 1929 – so we are essentially rewriting economic history,” Brent Moulton, who manages the national accounts at the Bureau of Economic Analysis, told the Financial Times in an interview in April.

    The scope of the revisions will keep economists busy for months. For example, politically sensitive figures on the size and growth of the US government will change, because the revisions have no effect on past tax revenues. At a time when Republicans argue the growth of federal government is out of control, the revisions are likely to lower federal spending as a share of GDP by half a percentage point. They should also lower federal debt as a share of GDP by about 2 percentage points from 73 per cent in 2012.

    But there are also two other layers of GDP data out on Wednesday, of which the shiniest and most visible will be the least important.

    The top layer is the first estimate of second-quarter growth. It is generally expected to be miserable, with the consensus estimate at an annualised rise of 1.1 per cent. Some forecasts, such as that by Dean Maki of Barclays Capital in New York, are as low as 0.5 per cent.

    Mr Maki said that consumer spending had slowed due to the lagged effects of tax increases and government spending cuts. “However, the contribution from trade and inventories now looks to be notably weaker than we had been assuming,” he added.

    Almost every forecaster thinks the dip is temporary and expects a bounce in the second half of the year as government spending cuts peak and the short-term drag of inventories falls away. For many, the weaker their second-quarter number, the more growth they expect during the rest of the year.

    These short-term growth forecasts may be wildly wrong this month, however, because of the second layer of data: annual revisions to GDP for the last three years of numbers from 2010 to 2012. They will reflect updated source data, such as more detailed information from tax returns, as companies settle their accounts.

    If the base level of GDP at the end of the first quarter of 2013 changes a lot, it may make estimates of growth during the second quarter especially inaccurate.

    There is a decent chance that the size of the economy will be revised upwards because gross domestic income (GDI), an alternative measure of output, has been running well ahead of GDP.

    If GDP is revised up to the level of GDI, it would change the picture of recent growth, with the economy expanding by 2.2 per cent in the year to the end of the first quarter instead of 1.6 per cent.

    That would help to explain why US jobs numbers have been so much stronger than growth data and provide significant comfort to the US Federal Reserve as it considers when to start reducing its asset purchases from $85bn a month.

    “We all should keep in mind that these are very rough estimates and they get revised,” noted Fed chairman Ben Bernanke in recent testimony to Congress. For example, you get somewhat different numbers when you look at gross domestic income instead of gross domestic product.”


    You can read about more details of the changes in GDP reporting here:


  • #2
    I'll wait for the real revised numbers that come out after the 2014 elections.

    Stevo
    Originally posted by SSMAN
    ...Welcome to the land of "Fuck it". No body cares, and if they do, no body cares.

    Comment


    • #3
      Does it surprise anyone that they just make this shit up as they go along now?

      Comment


      • #4
        Eh, they changed the definition of unemployed now so that they have 7% instead of 35% so not surprised
        I wear a Fez. Fez-es are cool

        Comment


        • #5
          Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. ..
          "It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

          Comment


          • #6
            I fail to see how the OP's contention makes sense. If this idea was published somewhere, I'd be interested in reading it.
            Last edited by slow99; 12-21-2013, 02:50 PM.
            Originally posted by davbrucas
            I want to like Slow99 since people I know say he's a good guy, but just about everything he posts is condescending and passive aggressive.

            Most people I talk to have nothing but good things to say about you, but you sure come across as a condescending prick. Do you have an inferiority complex you've attempted to overcome through overachievement? Or were you fondled as a child?

            You and slow99 should date. You both have passive aggressiveness down pat.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Forever_frost View Post
              Eh, they changed the definition of unemployed now so that they have 7% instead of 35% so not surprised
              The BLS didn't change the definition of unemployed.
              ZOMBIE REAGAN FOR PRESIDENT 2016!!! heh

              Comment


              • #8
                this

                Originally posted by slow99 View Post
                I fail to see how the OP's contention makes sense. If this idea was published somewhere, I'd be interested in reading it.
                Don't worry about what you can't change.
                Do the best you can with what you have.
                Be honest, even if it hurts.

                "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" ... Winston Churchill

                Comment


                • #9
                  I remember reading a while back about how they were going to add R&D costs to the calculation. Sounds like horseshit to me.
                  Originally posted by racrguy
                  What's your beef with NPR, because their listeners are typically more informed than others?
                  Originally posted by racrguy
                  Voting is a constitutional right, overthrowing the government isn't.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Gee thanks, jyro, lmao. I am well aware of the change in calculation. I said I don't see how you get to the point the op is making.
                    Originally posted by davbrucas
                    I want to like Slow99 since people I know say he's a good guy, but just about everything he posts is condescending and passive aggressive.

                    Most people I talk to have nothing but good things to say about you, but you sure come across as a condescending prick. Do you have an inferiority complex you've attempted to overcome through overachievement? Or were you fondled as a child?

                    You and slow99 should date. You both have passive aggressiveness down pat.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by YALE View Post
                      The BLS didn't change the definition of unemployed.
                      So many Americans have been jobless for so long that the government is changing how it records long-term unemployment.


                      U.S. changes how it measures long-term unemployment

                      By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
                      So many Americans have been jobless for so long that the government is changing how it records long-term unemployment.


                      In short: applying a realistic labor force participation rate to the unemployment rate series, shows that the real US unemployment rate is now 11.5%, a 4.5% difference from the reported number, and the second highest ever, only better compared to October's 4.7%.

                      Of course, don't inform the Fed of this discrepancy: if aware, the Fed's monetary mandarins would likely never taper. Then again, if indeed the Fed never does taper as many suggest (since it is the flow, not the stock), we will know just which series of unemployment data the Fed is looking at.

                      ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero
                      Last edited by Forever_frost; 12-21-2013, 05:31 PM.
                      I wear a Fez. Fez-es are cool

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I'm not seeing what your talking about then.

                        Originally posted by slow99 View Post
                        Gee thanks, jyro, lmao. I am well aware of the change in calculation. I said I don't see how you get to the point the op is making.
                        the op wrote 2 things:
                        This--- Big News! The Bureau of Economic Analysis says that the revised GDP numbers for the 3rd qtr of 2013 show that the economy grew at 4.1%

                        Then this---- You can read about more details of the changes in GDP reporting here:

                        so what point are you speaking of?
                        All the interaction between you and I has been bad, I don't want it that way.
                        Don't worry about what you can't change.
                        Do the best you can with what you have.
                        Be honest, even if it hurts.

                        "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" ... Winston Churchill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jyro View Post
                          the op wrote 2 things:
                          This--- Big News! The Bureau of Economic Analysis says that the revised GDP numbers for the 3rd qtr of 2013 show that the economy grew at 4.1%

                          Then this---- You can read about more details of the changes in GDP reporting here:

                          so what point are you speaking of?
                          All the interaction between you and I has been bad, I don't want it that way.
                          I don't want it that way either.

                          His point is that ~3% of the 4.1% growth was due to the adjustment in GDP reporting. I'm saying that isn't the case unless one of the numbers in the numerator or denominator doesn't include the adjustment - which isn't the case.
                          Originally posted by davbrucas
                          I want to like Slow99 since people I know say he's a good guy, but just about everything he posts is condescending and passive aggressive.

                          Most people I talk to have nothing but good things to say about you, but you sure come across as a condescending prick. Do you have an inferiority complex you've attempted to overcome through overachievement? Or were you fondled as a child?

                          You and slow99 should date. You both have passive aggressiveness down pat.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If I can understand it, you should

                            Originally posted by slow99 View Post
                            I don't want it that way either.

                            His point is that ~3% of the 4.1% growth was due to the adjustment in GDP reporting. I'm saying that isn't the case unless one of the numbers in the numerator or denominator doesn't include the adjustment - which isn't the case.


                            It's a lot more complicated than just working numbers. They added a lot into the calculation that never should have been in there and those areas being added are not in any other countries GDP calculations so there is no viable comparison of our GDP to other countries and that makes the USA's GDP bogus. You're not just a little bit smarter than me, you're a lot. I've been out of school for longer than you've been alive. I signed up to seekingalpha so I could get the whole article. If I'm wrong, let me know.

                            "The government made a significant change in the gross investment number (I), which now includes R&D spending, art, music, film royalties, books, theater. This change in GDP statistics has not been implemented elsewhere in the world. So the U.S. is the first to accomplish this rewriting of the GDP number.

                            Research and development (R&D) spending, which shouldn't even be accounted for as investment, adds a significant amount to the U.S. GDP number. It accounts for around 2% of U.S. GDP. Art, music, film royalties, books and theatre add another 0.5% to U.S. GDP. Another adjustment has been made to pension accounting. Previously, pension spending was included in GDP. After this adjustment however, we also look at the "promise" to pay out pensions. So we are talking about imaginary numbers that are now included in GDP. A last example is found in real estate. Commissions, legal bills and expenditures on real estate transactions are included in GDP as "investment." Obviously these expenditures aren't associated with real production.

                            One of the consequences is that comparing the GDP number between other countries and the U.S. is not transparent anymore. It is like comparing apples and oranges. GDP should measure real production (like building a factory) and what the U.S. government added here is not real production. It is a measure of spending in the economy and there are items in the GDP number that don't add real value to the economy (like writing books).

                            Second, while the GDP number gets inflated upwards, all macroeconomic indicators that are based on the GDP number will be adjusted with it. For example, the debt to GDP, which is at 105% now (Chart 1), will drop 3% just because of this adjustment to the GDP number. This fictitious drop in debt to GDP will highlight that the U.S. improved its debt load, while it did not. Another example is government spending as a percentage of GDP. By increasing the GDP number, we will get a lower government spending number, which allows the government to increase spending.

                            Third, people need to know that the GDP numbers were already "massaged" if we look at real GDP. Real GDP is nominal GDP, but inflation adjusted with the Consumer Price Index (CPI). As we all know, the CPI has a hedonic adjustment applied to it, which adds a multiplier to different asset classes in the CPI. The total sum of this hedonic adjustment creates a lower CPI, which makes the real GDP look bigger. With other words, the government is masking the inflation numbers. If we now take into account the recent adjustment in the GDP number, we have a double incremental effect on real GDP.

                            Fourth, we will have distortions in the correlations that are based on GDP. For example, the total stock market index valuation depends on the GDP number. The "Warren Buffett Rule" states that stock markets become overvalued if the Total Stock Market Index (DWCF) goes into the range of 90%-115% of GDP. With the recent adjustment in the GDP number, this range will shift to 87%-112% and will likely decline further.

                            The conclusion is that investors need to take the third quarter 2013 GDP number with a grain of salt. They also need to keep this GDP adjustment in their mind when they value stocks based on GDP numbers (Chart 3). The 3% increase in GDP will be imaginary, but I predict that the mainstream media will probably tout that the economy is improving and stocks (DIA) will react positively on this coming news. The decay in the underlying U.S. economy however, has not subsided."
                            Last edited by jyro; 12-21-2013, 07:57 PM.
                            Don't worry about what you can't change.
                            Do the best you can with what you have.
                            Be honest, even if it hurts.

                            "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery" ... Winston Churchill

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I see now. Thanks.
                              Originally posted by Forever_frost View Post
                              http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ess28_ST_N.htm

                              U.S. changes how it measures long-term unemployment

                              By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
                              So many Americans have been jobless for so long that the government is changing how it records long-term unemployment.


                              In short: applying a realistic labor force participation rate to the unemployment rate series, shows that the real US unemployment rate is now 11.5%, a 4.5% difference from the reported number, and the second highest ever, only better compared to October's 4.7%.

                              Of course, don't inform the Fed of this discrepancy: if aware, the Fed's monetary mandarins would likely never taper. Then again, if indeed the Fed never does taper as many suggest (since it is the flow, not the stock), we will know just which series of unemployment data the Fed is looking at.

                              http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-1...yment-rate-115
                              ZOMBIE REAGAN FOR PRESIDENT 2016!!! heh

                              Comment

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