Manning trial to start

[racrguy]

No, when it comes to military matters, if they screw up, I advocate quick and severe punishment, thus when Manning fucked up and admitted it, he should have had a .45 put through the back of his skull.

He directly violated his oath and took sensitive items and handed them to a foreign agent with the express intent to distribute it. Snowden did pretty much the same, but it was about unconstitutional actions on Americans. Do I care about government agencies violating the supreme law of the land? Absolutely.

Do I care about what happens in a theater of war to people not covered under the constitution? Yes but I care more about the safety of the soldiers fighting that war.

Whatever they want? No. We have laws we must abide by and that we are bound to when we violate them. You go on a shooting spree and kill a bunch of innocents? Bullet in the head. You hand out secret information to a foreign agent who has the intent to distribute without regard to the lives it effects in theater? You die.

Simple, quick and costs the taxpayers the cost of one round.

Not every "crime" deserves death. Jesus christ, man.

Way to be hypocritical. "This leak is ok, this other one is not." when they're essentially the same goddamn thing.

[Moose242]

Much like Matt when it comes to police matters, you are so completely blinded by fraternity when it comes to anything Military related.

This times eleventy-billion.

[Forever_frost]

Not every "crime" deserves death. Jesus christ, man.

Way to be hypocritical. "This leak is ok, this other one is not." when they're essentially the same goddamn thing.

Treason does, especially when it's the military doing it. Then again, I view violating your oath as a serious crime.

Not hypocritical at all. I've been accused of both viewing the military through rose colored glasses but also being too hard on them. Which is it?

[racrguy]

Treason does, especially when it's the military doing it. Then again, I view violating your oath as a serious crime.

Not hypocritical at all. I've been accused of both viewing the military through rose colored glasses but also being too hard on them. Which is it?

When they don't do something serious in your eyes, they get a pass. When you think they fucked up, you go overboard to the point that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.[/quote]

You can have both issues. In other words, you aren't consistent or fair in your viewpoints.

[Forever_frost]

While I think I am both consistent and fair in my views. When you urinate on the corpse of the guy who was shooting at you a few seconds ago? Not an issue.

Releasing troop numbers to someone who publishes it so Al Queda can use it to determine where to hit and when? Issue.

[ceyko]

This times eleventy-billion.

I'm not responding to this per se, just easy to try a different angle with you on this post since it's one of or the latest post you made.

I can't remember if we were told this or not, but we generally assume screwing up with classified material could be death. I personally got furious when I saw people doing minor screw ups with classified stuff and I expected the same in return.

As a Soldier, Marine or any other service if you do not support some sort of death sentence for this dude, I'd probably not associate with you.

I understand your mentality is a lot different than a simple solider's. Your supporting argument seems to be that it was less severe since he aired out some dirt laundry.

That is 110% the wrong way to think about this and maybe one day you'll understand. However, he could have done several other things. I'll list some below...

1. Take it up the chain of command
2. (Bad) Just aired some of the bad stuff
3. In regards to the helicopter - just STFU about it if it is not against the rules of engagement

In all honesty, I'm a bit of a hypocrite and will not change on several issues. I'm for more open government and so on. However, the average person does not need to know most of what the military does on a daily basis. That is one of many factors of a military that is leashed and ineffective. OPSEC is gone, people will cry over faces being blown off of dead terrorists...etc...etc. War is far from pretty or entertaining.

I could go on and on, but either way you DO NOT just hand over 1 - much less a shit ton of classified documents to a public entity. There are whistle blower programs and other avenues to get dirty laundry out without risking the lives of the entire military force in country and the security of the United States.

I know you'll still disagree, but he still won't get any love or sympathy from most of the military community. (Retired, prior service, active duty, reserves...etc)

[Forever_frost]

Altering my view on his execution. Absolutely okay with what he's facing as I had this explained to me:

Grunts11Bravo, U.S. Infantry Soldiers
Bradley Manning has been found not guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy, a charge that could have brought a life sentence. However, he was found guilty on a number of other charges, which when combined, could carry a sentence up to 128years.

Try not to freak out, but I believe this is the correct decision.

Just listen. "Prosecutors had to prove Army Pfc. Bradley Manning had "a general evil intent" and knew the classified material would be seen by the terrorist group Al Qaeda."

Obviously, he knew that material posted on Wikileaks could and would be seen by members of Al-Qaeda, despite his attorney saying otherwise. But his attorney HAS to say that. But if you seriously think that Al-Qaeda does not have access to Wikileaks, you're out of your mind. For crying out loud, Osama bin Laden had some of the files that Manning leaked six months later when the SeAL Team Six paid him a visit.

That said, I truly do not believe that Manning had "a general evil intent." I do not believe that his intent was to literally aid and abet the enemy. I believe that his intent was to spark a debate on war tactics and power. However, he went about it in the wrong way, and if he had thought about it for more than two seconds, he would have realized this. I am of the opinion that he DID realize this and went ahead and did it anyways.

While it was (theoretically) not his direct intent to aid and abet the enemy, he had to have known that his actions would INDIRECTLY aid and abet the enemy. Either that or he was just stupidly naive. But I do not buy that second explanation.

And he DID indirectly aid and abet the enemy.

I am of the opinion that he should still be taken out back and shot, but that is not the law of the land.

I still believe that he is a traitor. But I believe that this ruling is correct.

~FADNET

[Forever_frost]

I'm not responding to this per se, just easy to try a different angle with you on this post since it's one of or the latest post you made.

I can't remember if we were told this or not, but we generally assume screwing up with classified material could be death. I personally got furious when I saw people doing minor screw ups with classified stuff and I expected the same in return.

As a Soldier, Marine or any other service if you do not support some sort of death sentence for this dude, I'd probably not associate with you.

I understand your mentality is a lot different than a simple solider's. Your supporting argument seems to be that it was less severe since he aired out some dirt laundry.

That is 110% the wrong way to think about this and maybe one day you'll understand. However, he could have done several other things. I'll list some below...

1. Take it up the chain of command
2. (Bad) Just aired some of the bad stuff
3. In regards to the helicopter - just STFU about it if it is not against the rules of engagement

In all honesty, I'm a bit of a hypocrite and will not change on several issues. I'm for more open government and so on. However, the average person does not need to know most of what the military does on a daily basis. That is one of many factors of a military that is leashed and ineffective. OPSEC is gone, people will cry over faces being blown off of dead terrorists...etc...etc. War is far from pretty or entertaining.

I could go on and on, but either way you DO NOT just hand over 1 - much less a shit ton of classified documents to a public entity. There are whistle blower programs and other avenues to get dirty laundry out without risking the lives of the entire military force in country and the security of the United States.

I know you'll still disagree, but he still won't get any love or sympathy from most of the military community. (Retired, prior service, active duty, reserves...etc)

Well said.

[LANTIRN]

...




Praise Snowden, but crucify Manning. Got it.

Did you even read what I wrote? I said Snowden appeared to be doing what he did for the right reasons; he was supposedly trying to inform Americans of unconstitutional actions by the government. I do not know 100% if his intentions were pure, which is why I have no supported him 100%. He supposedly had access to very sensitive CIA intel that would have put lives at danger, and he did not release it; if that is true I applaud him.

Manning obviously released sensitive and classified info, as was proved during trial. Again, I have barely followed this story, but it sounds like he is going to get a punishment he deserves. I never attempted to crucify him as I did not know exactly what he released. I fail to see how I am being anything other than reasonable in both cases.

[bcoop]

Did you even read what I wrote?

Did you even read what I wrote?


Frost at least understood it completely.

[LANTIRN]

Did you even read what I wrote?


Frost at least understood it completely.

Yes, you said I wanted to praise Snowden and crucify Manning, which is not exactly what I have said.

[bcoop]

Yes, you said I wanted to praise Snowden and crucify Manning, which is not exactly what I have said.

I'll give you a pass, because I didn't spell it out like I was talking to a 4th grader. That said, the person I directed that at, knew exactly what I meant, and responded to it as such.


You're not quite understanding me yet.

[exlude]

Okay, I'm biased on this being in the military, however:

I don't see Snowden and Manning as one in the same. A lot of it has to do with intent in my eyes, given that is mostly perceived. Manning did it as a "f*ck you" to his chain of command and the military as a whole. He was a disgruntled Soldier whose career wasn't all he thought it was going to be, so he violated his oath IOT get some kind of revenge on it all. A lot of this is seen in his IMs. He didn't filter the information he released, he just released as much as he could, consequences to others be damn.

Snowden genuinely believed that what our government did was wrong and unconstitutional. He picked a select topic and filtered the information he released. He had a goal in mind that was much finer than just "f*ck the US" kind of thing.

[KBScobravert]

Okay, I'm biased on this being in the military, however:

I don't see Snowden and Manning as one in the same. A lot of it has to do with intent in my eyes, given that is mostly perceived. Manning did it as a "f*ck you" to his chain of command and the military as a whole. He was a disgruntled Soldier whose career wasn't all he thought it was going to be, so he violated his oath IOT get some kind of revenge on it all. A lot of this is seen in his IMs. He didn't filter the information he released, he just released as much as he could, consequences to others be damn.

Snowden genuinely believed that what our government did was wrong and unconstitutional. He picked a select topic and filtered the information he released. He had a goal in mind that was much finer than just "f*ck the US" kind of thing.

To the point and agreed with all the above.

[racrguy]

Okay, I'm biased on this being in the military, however:

I don't see Snowden and Manning as one in the same. A lot of it has to do with intent in my eyes, given that is mostly perceived. Manning did it as a "f*ck you" to his chain of command and the military as a whole. He was a disgruntled Soldier whose career wasn't all he thought it was going to be, so he violated his oath IOT get some kind of revenge on it all. A lot of this is seen in his IMs. He didn't filter the information he released, he just released as much as he could, consequences to others be damn.

Snowden genuinely believed that what our government did was wrong and unconstitutional. He picked a select topic and filtered the information he released. He had a goal in mind that was much finer than just "f*ck the US" kind of thing.

Nobody accused Manning of being smart. If he was smart he'd have filtered out the information like Snowden did, but here's where we're at.