As requested: Racr's thread.

[4.6coupe]

Catholicism uses idols and images for example...

[racrguy]

Catholicism uses idols and images for example...

Ok, so we'll ignore that protestants can't seem to make a church without a cross on/in it or wear them around their necks.

[4.6coupe]

You can, but i'm not going to make a shrine and pray to idols like you so often see...

[Denny]

They confess to a priest who in turn forgives their sins if they chant to Mary a few times. Their hiarchy says that there are levels of holiness their priests possess. They pray to statues and dead saints instead of only Jesus. There is more, but you get the idea.

Do they believe in Jesus? Ya, but not how the Bible says to. Even the Muslims believe that Jesus was a holy person.

[The King]

You might say that Catholic priests usurp the authority of Jesus Christ to forgive sins. I have an issue with the notion that the Pope is ordained as supreme by God, since although he may be a servant of Jesus, many others are as well and I consider him to be of no higher or lower status than any other man.

[exlude]

Yet, Catholicism isn't Christianity. That's another great deception from Satan.

They might not be your brand of Christianity, but are certainly Christian if not for the mere concept they believe in Christ as God. I agree though, a lot wrong with it.

[talisman]

Not really. It is only fair to allow each person the right to make the proclamation that will finalize their eternal status. God didn't have to give us free will. He did because He loves us and allows us to decide everything for ourselves.

Why would God need to use the coercion of torturing someone for eternity to get them to make the "correct" choice?

[The King]

They might not be your brand of Christianity, but are certainly Christian if not for the mere concept they believe in Christ as God. I agree though, a lot wrong with it.

Holy cow, correct yet a third time. This is getting to be a habit.

[quikag]

Why would God need to use the coercion of torturing someone for eternity to get them to make the "correct" choice?

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

So, there is no coercion. You are either with God or you are not. If you are not, then you are outside of God's protection and under the control of Satan.

While I do not pretend to fully understand some of God's decisions and things he allows to happen, I do know he is completely just and holy. Those who disagree with what God does and has done and choose to make a martyr out of themselves really aren't accomplishing anything. It's a pride thing and it could damn you to hell for eternity. No true Christian wants that for anyone hence Jesus' Great Commission:

Matthew 28:16-20
New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



Please know a Christian doesn't need any validation from man. It's not like we are trying to talk you into believing, so we get a warm fuzzy and are more confident of our faith. There is one truth and the rest is lies. I would just recommend anyone to truly research, study, and test God's Word. Dismissing out of pride or arrogance could be a mistake that affects you for eternity.

[racrguy]

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

So, there is no coercion. You are either with God or you are not. If you are not, then you are outside of God's protection and under the control of Satan.

While I do not pretend to fully understand some of God's decisions and things he allows to happen, I do know he is completely just and holy. Those who disagree with what God does and has done and choose to make a martyr out of themselves really aren't accomplishing anything. It's a pride thing and it could damn you to hell for eternity. No true Christian wants that for anyone hence Jesus' Great Commission:

Matthew 28:16-20
New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

How does it feel to exist with that level of cognitive dissonance?

Please know a Christian doesn't need any validation from man.

Clearly. If they did, they wouldn't be christian because man invalidates the need for a deity.

It's not like we are trying to talk you into believing, so we get a warm fuzzy and are more confident of our faith.

So you speak for all christians now? Maybe you don't, but I know more than one that do get a warm fuzzy feeling for converting someone.

There is one truth and the rest is lies.

We agree.

I would just recommend anyone to truly research, study, and test God's Word.

We do, and we have in this very thread. You just hand waive it and act like the results don't exist.

Dismissing out of pride or arrogance could be a mistake that affects you for eternity.

Only in your world view. There is no eternity for us in mine. Your pride and arrogance will cause you to waste the only life you have, and the only one you'll ever get.

[quikag]

Only in your world view. There is no eternity for us in mine. Your pride and arrogance will cause you to waste the only life you have, and the only one you'll ever get.

So, you create your own reality? I guess you can do that in your own mind, but in the real world, there is one life and one reality. At the end, there is one of two results. Your actions and beliefs will dictate which result you get.

I find it very interesting and very revealing that you believe being a Christian will "cause you to waste the only life you have". I think that should about sum it up for anyone reading this thread. I am genuinely sorry you think a Christian life is a wasted life.

It's quite the opposite and not because we are above the fray and the temptations and struggles of life. It's because of that and our realization we cannot do it alone with any measure of sustained success due to our weaknesses and we have to call on Christ and His promises. A life with Christ is a life worth living. We still make mistakes, trust me, I make plenty on a regular basis. I'm sorry you appear to have discounted Christianity because of some bad experiences you've had with Christians or those who call themselves Christians.

[talisman]

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." Matthew 12:30

So, there is no coercion. You are either with God or you are not. If you are not, then you are outside of God's protection and under the control of Satan.

Do you understand what the word coercion means? When you offer someone a "choice" that has one possible positive and one extreme negative, it is not a "choice."

[talisman]

We agree.

We do, and we have in this very thread. You just hand waive it and act like the results don't exist.

Take it easy on the "we" stuff. I don't 100% agree or disagree with anyone in this thread. I have my beliefs and they will remain mine, as should everyone else. Some peoples beliefs however will likely never make the slightest bit of sense to me, but I suppose that door swings both ways.

[racrguy]

Take it easy on the "we" stuff. I don't 100% agree or disagree with anyone in this thread. I have my beliefs and they will remain mine, as should everyone else. Some peoples beliefs however will likely never make the slightest bit of sense to me, but I suppose that door swings both ways.

We agree, as in he and I, and the we do part, Maddhattter and myself.

Edit: Replace "we agree" with "we agree on this"

[racrguy]

So, you create your own reality? I guess you can do that in your own mind, but in the real world, there is one life and one reality.

I never said I had my own reality. However, I did say I had a differing worldview.

At the end, there is one of two results. Your actions and beliefs will dictate which result you get.

At the end there is only one result. Death. That is the only option.

I find it very interesting and very revealing that you believe being a Christian will "cause you to waste the only life you have". I think that should about sum it up for anyone reading this thread. I am genuinely sorry you think a Christian life is a wasted life.

I also didn't say that a christian life was a wasted life outside the context of my worldview.

It's quite the opposite and not because we are above the fray and the temptations and struggles of life. It's because of that and our realization we cannot do it alone with any measure of sustained success due to our weaknesses and we have to call on Christ and His promises. A life with Christ is a life worth living. We still make mistakes, trust me, I make plenty on a regular basis. I'm sorry you appear to have discounted Christianity because of some bad experiences you've had with Christians or those who call themselves Christians.

Christian people didn't drive me from christianity.

You suffer from the same problem that Denny has, assuming people are saying Y when they are actually saying X. Had you bothered to read the entire thread you'd have seen the part where I said "Yes, because you read into it more than what I said. When I speak about religion I intentionally pick and choose every word I use to clearly and concisely make my point." You've simply made up things you think I said instead of what I actually said. If you don't perfectly grasp what I'm saying, ask me a question and I'll explain further. Don't assume or fill in the blanks with what you think I'm saying.

However, if you have the truth you can demonstrate it instead of just making claims, which is all you've done in this thread.