Service members sue Japan over radiation

[Moose242]

I don't see how we're primarily responsible. We helped build an ally in Japan and helped their industrialization. We didn't help or assist them in invading China or the pacific islands, we were highly opposed to it. That was solely their agenda. That's similar to saying we are responsible for Nazi occupation since we traded with Germany during the interwar period.

We let it happen while we were taking possession of the Philippines, lol. We created a monster and it came back to bite us and the Europeans in the ass (who had been in control of China for over a century). China was there for the taking, and they took it. They then pushed the British Empire's shit in all the way down the Malaysian Peninsula.
Comparing the opening and modernization of Japan to trade with Germany is not comparable.

[CJ]

We let it happen while we were taking possession of the Philippines, lol. We created a monster and it came back to bite us and the Europeans in the ass (who had been in control of China for over a century). China was there for the taking, and they took it. They then pushed the British Empire's shit in all the way down the Malaysian Peninsula.
Comparing the opening and modernization of Japan to trade with Germany is not comparable.

I'm saying it's equally as absurd, we helped them industrialize through trade. The whole point of it, "Letting it happen" and being primarily responsible are completely different. Every other country is equally to blame as the US would be for this. England was vested in China. It was a target of opportunity for Japan. The entire pacific island campaign was Japan's own creation. The case for us being responsible is pretty weak, it seems it's based entirely on the fact we helped them industrialize through trade. Wouldn't China be responsible since their invasion failed due to divine wind? It seems to be a pretty skewed perspective on history in my opinion. My history professors tried to cram this anti-american BS down my throat in college also.

[Moose242]

I'm saying it's equally as absurd, we helped them industrialize through trade. The whole point of it, "Letting it happen" and being primarily responsible are completely different. Every other country is equally to blame as the US would be for this. England was vested in China. It was a target of opportunity for Japan. The entire pacific island campaign was Japan's own creation. The case for us being responsible is pretty weak, it seems it's based entirely on the fact we helped them industrialize through trade. Wouldn't China be responsible since their invasion failed due to divine wind? It seems to be a pretty skewed perspective on history in my opinion. My history professors tried to cram this anti-american BS down my throat in college also.

We helped them militarize as well (as did the French and the British) through a series of military missions. Thus, creating a monster. I have come to this conclusion on my own my friend, I don't believe I had an anti-american professor either. The fact is that we opened Japan, Militarized them, and industrialized them. Without us, they would have remained feudal.

[CJ]

We helped them militarize as well (as did the French and the British) through a series of military missions. Thus, creating a monster. I have come to this conclusion on my own my friend, I don't believe I had an anti-american professor either. The fact is that we opened Japan, Militarized them, and industrialized them. Without us, they would have remained feudal.

So are the French to blame for Vietnam on that basis? Japan was an ally, not a country we were looking to add to an empire. It's been years since I've read anything on turn of the century Japan, but I believe the modernization of the Japanese military was at the request of the Emperor - and I believe also that a great majority of that was private contractors and ex-military, not direct US military involvement. You're effectually blaming the US for the free will of the Japanese people. I cannot absolve the Japanese for what happened during WW2, they are completely responsible for what they chose to do. You could argue congress and FDR's willingness to abide isolationist perspectives on Germany as the biggest contributor to Japan's campaign. Japan saw China as ripe for the picking due to England's involvement in Europe and their weakened state. I doubt Japan would have gone toe to toe with England had they not.

[Gtracer]

you know, if we were all attorneys...or at least thought like attorneys....we would always be blaming someone else for our (their) own problems...(not speaking to the U.S. directly)

In the end, you have two hands, two feet, a mouth, ears and eyes and, your own mind.

[Moose242]

So are the French to blame for Vietnam on that basis? Japan was an ally, not a country we were looking to add to an empire. It's been years since I've read anything on turn of the century Japan, but I believe the modernization of the Japanese military was at the request of the Emperor - and I believe also that a great majority of that was private contractors and ex-military, not direct US military involvement. You're effectually blaming the US for the free will of the Japanese people. I cannot absolve the Japanese for what happened during WW2, they are completely responsible for what they chose to do. You could argue congress and FDR's willingness to abide isolationist perspectives on Germany as the biggest contributor to Japan's campaign. Japan saw China as ripe for the picking due to England's involvement in Europe and their weakened state. I doubt Japan would have gone toe to toe with England had they not.

The French are partly to blame for Vietnam, you know this as we have discussed it. The root of my argument, ney, the point I was making was to serve the purpose of pointing out LANTIRN's ignorance; He claimed that they never paid for their war crimes. That is completely and entirely false. Japan is a newcomer to global affairs, and to say that they fucked up Asia is a misnomer as it had been occupied and fucked over decades. The vacuum created by the state of affairs in Europe at the time simply allowed the areas of Asia occupied by the European powers to be taken over instead by the Empire of Japan, honorary imperialists educated in the ways of occupation and warfare by Europeans and Americans.

[CJ]

The French are partly to blame for Vietnam, you know this as we have discussed it. The root of my argument, ney, the point I was making was to serve the purpose of pointing out LANTIRN's ignorance; He claimed that they never paid for their war crimes. That is completely and entirely false. Japan is a newcomer to global affairs, and to say that they fucked up Asia is a misnomer as it had been occupied and fucked over decades. The vacuum created by the state of affairs in Europe at the time simply allowed the areas of Asia occupied by the European powers to be taken over instead by the Empire of Japan, honorary imperialists educated in the ways of occupation and warfare by Europeans and Americans.

I don't think they fucked up Asia, you could make just as strong a case for England not preparing China to defend itself as you can the US did for preparing Japan to do so. However, Japan killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese people in cold blood, they laid a path of genocide throughout the pacific that parallels the Third Reich - and in many cases the Japanese were far worse. I can't absolve them of any of that. I don't know the state of financial repayment on war debt regarding Japan, but to say they were released from all debt because he had to nuke them doesn't make any sense to me. Just because you got your ass kicked doesn't mean you're free from your debts.

[Moose242]

I don't think they fucked up Asia, you could make just as strong a case for England not preparing China to defend itself as you can the US did for preparing Japan to do so. However, Japan killed hundreds of thousands of Chinese people in cold blood, they laid a path of genocide throughout the pacific that parallels the Third Reich - and in many cases the Japanese were far worse. I can't absolve them of any of that. I don't know the state of financial repayment on war debt regarding Japan, but to say they were released from all debt because he had to nuke them doesn't make any sense to me. Just because you got your ass kicked doesn't mean you're free from your debts.

Dude, they fucked up Asia hard core:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino%E2%80%93French_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_revolt_%281862%E2%80%931877%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

They are STILL paying for what they did 70 years ago: We rewrote their constitution, occupied them (and continue to do so), disarmed them, forbid them from having a military, and Japan agreed to pay around ¥1.03 trillion in war repayment. For countries that renounced any reparations from Japan, it agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements.

[CJ]

Dude, they fucked up Asia hard core:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Opium_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino%E2%80%93French_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Opium_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungan_revolt_%281862%E2%80%931877%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

They are STILL paying for what they did 70 years ago: We rewrote their constitution, occupied them (and continue to do so), disarmed them, forbid them from having a military, and Japan agreed to pay around ¥1.03 trillion in war repayment. For countries that renounced any reparations from Japan, it agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements.

I was agreeing with you, you said it's a misnomer to say they fucked up Asia. I agree that it had been fucked up for centuries. I was just furthering the evidence with all the shit Japan did as well. And Japan is doing pretty damn well for itself thanks to the US (and yes I do think the US takes credit for that).

[Moose242]

I was agreeing with you, you said it's a misnomer to say they fucked up Asia. I agree that it had been fucked up for centuries. I was just furthering the evidence with all the shit Japan did as well. And Japan is doing pretty damn well for itself thanks to the US (and yes I do think the US takes credit for that).

Hey, we helped them once and it came back to bit us in the ass, helped them for the second time and it has been great for my tentacle porn fetish.

[CJ]

Hey, we helped them once and it came back to bit us in the ass, helped them for the second time and it has been great for my tentacle porn fetish.

I think the real success of reconstruction begins with two nukes.

[Gtracer]

So, how about that lawsuite huh...pretty crazy I bet

[46Tbird]

It looks like maybe you guys have cooled a bit, but here's my .02.

We helped them militarize as well (as did the French and the British) through a series of military missions. Thus, creating a monster. I have come to this conclusion on my own my friend, I don't believe I had an anti-american professor either. The fact is that we opened Japan, Militarized them, and industrialized them. Without us, they would have remained feudal.

By this line of reasoning we should blame Chinese alchemists for the creation of modern firepower, or French balloonists for developments that led to strategic bombing.

The actions of the Japanese government and military in the '20s-40s were purely their own. American actions may have forced them into a corner, but the US intent was to keep the Japanese from having imperialist domination over the Pacific. The Japanese intent of the Pearl Harbor attack was not to defeat the Americans outright, but to negotiate for a peace in the Pacific while they ravaged it.

Then what do we deserve for pre 1865 America?

1863. Sorry.

[talisman]

1863. Sorry.

Solid point.

[CJ]

The Japanese intent of the Pearl Harbor attack was not to defeat the Americans outright, but to negotiate for a peace in the Pacific while they ravaged it.

I believe the idea behind the strategy was to destroy the US pacific fleet to buy them the time needed to reinforce their positions. They underestimated our ability to rebuild the fleet. They also made some huge blunders with their ships. I think we agree on the Japanese responsibility sentiment 100%.