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Santa Monica ends Native Scene Display tradition

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  • Santa Monica ends Native Scene Display tradition

    I'm not a militant atheist, but I found this extremely amusing.


    LOS ANGELES (AP) — Damon Vix didn't have to go to court to push Christmas out of the city of Santa Monica. He just joined the festivities.

    The atheist's anti-God message alongside a life-sized nativity display in a park overlooking the beach ignited a debate that burned brighter than any Christmas candle.

    Santa Monica officials snuffed the city's holiday tradition this year rather than referee the religious rumble, prompting churches that have set up a 14-scene Christian diorama for decades to sue over freedom of speech violations.

    Their attorney will ask a federal judge Monday to resurrect the depiction of Jesus' birth, while the city aims to eject the case.

    "It's a sad, sad commentary on the attitudes of the day that a nearly 60-year-old Christmas tradition is now having to hunt for a home, something like our savior had to hunt for a place to be born because the world was not interested," said Hunter Jameson, head of the nonprofit Santa Monica Nativity Scene Committee that is suing.

    Missing from the courtroom drama will be Vix and his fellow atheists, who are not parties to the case. Their role outside court highlights a tactical shift as atheists evolve into a vocal minority eager to get their non-beliefs into the public square as never before.

    National atheist groups earlier this year took out full-page newspaper ads and hundreds of TV spots in response to the Catholic bishops' activism around women's health care issues and are gearing up to battle for their own space alongside public Christmas displays in small towns across America this season.

    "In recent years, the tactic of many in the atheist community has been, if you can't beat them, join them," said Charles Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center and director of the Newseum's Religious Freedom Education Project in Washington. "If these church groups insist that these public spaces are going to be dominated by a Christian message, we'll just get in the game — and that changes everything."

    In the past, atheists primarily fought to uphold the separation of church and state through the courts. The change underscores the conviction held by many nonbelievers that their views are gaining a foothold, especially among young adults.

    The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life released a study last month that found 20 percent of Americans say they have no religious affiliation, an increase from 15 percent in the last five years. Atheists took heart from the report, although Pew researchers stressed that the category also encompassed majorities of people who said they believed in God but had no ties with organized religion and people who consider themselves "spiritual" but not "religious."

    "We're at the bottom of the totem pole socially, but we have muscle and we're flexing it," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Wisconsin-based Freedom from Religion Foundation. "Ignore our numbers at your peril."
    The trouble in Santa Monica began three years ago, when Vix applied for and was granted a booth in Palisades Park alongside the story of Jesus Christ's birth, from Mary's visit from the Angel Gabriel to the traditional crèche.
    Vix hung a simple sign that quoted Thomas Jefferson: "Religions are all alike -- founded on fables and mythologies." The other side read "Happy Solstice." He repeated the display the following year but then upped the stakes significantly.

    In 2011, Vix recruited 10 others to inundate the city with applications for tongue-in-cheek displays such as an homage to the "Pastafarian religion," which would include an artistic representation of the great Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    The secular coalition won 18 of 21 spaces. The two others went to the traditional Christmas displays and one to a Hanukkah display.

    The atheists used half their spaces, displaying signs such as one that showed pictures of Poseidon, Jesus, Santa Claus and the devil and said: "37 million Americans know myths when they see them. What myths do you see?"

    Most of the signs were vandalized and in the ensuing uproar, the city effectively ended a tradition that began in 1953 and earned Santa Monica one of its nicknames, the City of the Christmas Story.

    The Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee argues in its lawsuit that atheists have the right to protest, but that freedom doesn't trump the Christians' right to free speech.

    "If they want to hold an opposing viewpoint about the celebration of Christmas, they're free to do that — but they can't interfere with our right to engage in religious speech in a traditional public forum," said William Becker, attorney for the committee. "Our goal is to preserve the tradition in Santa Monica and to keep Christmas alive."

    The city doesn't prohibit churches from caroling in the park, handing out literature or even staging a play about the birth of Jesus and churches can always set up a nativity on private land, Deputy City Attorney Jeanette Schachtner said in an email.

    The decision to ban the displays also saves the city, which had administered the cumbersome lottery process used to award booths, both time and money while preserving the park's aesthetics, she said.

    For his part, Vix is surprised — and slightly amused — at the legal battle spawned by his solitary act but doesn't plan anything further.

    "That was such a unique and blatant example of the violation of the First Amendment that I felt I had to act," said the 44-year-old set builder. "If I had another goal, it would be to remove the 'under God' phrase from the Pledge of Allegiance — but that's a little too big for me to take on for right now."

  • #2
    Didn't bother to read any of that past the title, but what is a "Native Scene"?

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    • #3
      A native scene you know Indians and thanksgiving lol

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      • #4
        Originally posted by krazy kris View Post
        A native scene you know Indians and thanksgiving lol
        In honor of the reelection of the Kenyan-in-chief I was thinking maybe an African theme with cheesy stereotyped natives carrying spears, but I assume the OP can clear this mystery up better than anyone.
        Last edited by The King; 11-18-2012, 09:27 PM.

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        • #5
          Santa Monica can ban nativity scene, judge rules.

          Originally posted by LA Times
          The city of Santa Monica on Monday won a legal victory in its ban on Nativity scenes at Palisades Park.

          The Times' Rick Rojas, who covered the Nativity scene fight, will discuss the issue during a Google+ Hangout at 2 p.m.

          In a closely watched case that has attracted national attention, Judge Audrey B. Collins denied a request from the Santa Monica Nativity Scenes Committee to erect multiple large displays depicting the story of the birth of Jesus in the park overlooking the ocean. The coalition of churches has erected the displays every December since the 1950s.
          But last year, after requests for display spots exceeded the space allotted, the city held a lottery to allocate spaces. Atheists won 18 of 21 spots. A Jewish group won another. The traditional Nativity story that used to take up 14 displays was crammed into two.

          Controversy erupted, and as a result, the city decided the lottery would become increasingly costly. Last June, the City Council voted to ban all private unattended displays.

          In October, Nativity scene proponents filed suit in federal court to allow the traditional Christian displays to continue. In a 27-page tentative ruling, Collins denied the group permission to erect their displays this year while the case is pending.
          "The atheists won," said William Becker, attorney for the Nativity group. He then went on to compare the city to Pontius Pilate, the judge at Jesus' trial, saying: "It's a shame about Christmas. Pontius Pilate was exactly the same kind of administrator."

          Santa Monica's attorney, Barry A. Rosenbaum, said the city is "very pleased" with the ruling. The judge, he said, "understood the government interests and that [groups wanting to put up displays] have a number of alternatives to erect displays."

          All the parties are due back in court Dec. 3, when the judge will hear additional arguments in the case.


          The Christians shouldn't feel persecuted, it's a ban on ALL unattended displays.

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          • #6
            I have to laugh at "a vocal minority eager to get their non-beliefs into the public square"

            sharing non-beliefs just amuses me. I've never quite understood atheists in the fact that they remain proactive against religion. If I don't believe in something, I could care less about what they do.
            "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
            "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CJ View Post
              I have to laugh at "a vocal minority eager to get their non-beliefs into the public square"

              sharing non-beliefs just amuses me. I've never quite understood atheists in the fact that they remain proactive against religion. If I don't believe in something, I could care less about what they do.
              Simply proves that those who profess to be non-believers often show the greatest obsession with religion.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by The King View Post
                Simply proves that those who profess to be non-believers often show the greatest obsession with religion.
                It just seems to me that they are exactly what they say they are against, a religion.
                "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by The King View Post
                  Simply proves that those who profess to be non-believers often show the greatest obsession with religion.
                  Sweet baby Jesus, you and I actually agree on something. The older I get, I find atheists are FAR more outspoken and annoying than most religious people that I come in to contact with. They really are militant about it. For fuck's sake, shut the fuck up already. NOBODY CARES!
                  Originally posted by BradM
                  But, just like condoms and women's rights, I don't believe in them.
                  Originally posted by Leah
                  In other news: Brent's meat melts in your mouth.

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                  • #10
                    Just curious, why do you find this story amusing talisman?
                    Big Rooster Racing "Dare to win well."

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 85whtgt View Post
                      Just curious, why do you find this story amusing talisman?

                      The atheists did something entertaining and at least mildly constructive to get their views across. The result: Their shit was vandalized and the whole thing was cancelled due to the Christians. Christians want to fight so hard about how their religious freedom is being infringed upon, but when someone else has a different thought it is perfectly acceptable for them to encroach on it. That to me, is completely hilarious, especially the way it back fired in this case.

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                      • #12
                        Still laughing here at the O.P. and his hilarious "Native Scene" thread title.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bcoop View Post
                          Sweet baby Jesus, you and I actually agree on something. The older I get, I find atheists are FAR more outspoken and annoying than most religious people that I come in to contact with. They really are militant about it. For fuck's sake, shut the fuck up already. NOBODY CARES!
                          We atheists may be outspoken, but at least we don't threaten to shoot people who don't agree with us.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by racrguy View Post
                            We atheists may be outspoken, but at least we don't threaten to shoot people who don't agree with us.
                            Why is a group that doesn't believe something so outspoken about it? I'm not religious at all and I can't stand them. People care even less about what atheists think than Christians. Atheism is a religion whether they like it or not.
                            "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                            "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CJ View Post
                              Why is a group that doesn't believe something so outspoken about it?
                              If I explain it to you, would you stop with the train of thought expressed here: " If I don't believe in something, I could care less about what they do."

                              I'm not religious at all and I can't stand them.
                              You're entitled to your opinion.

                              People care even less about what atheists think than Christians.
                              I would agree with you, but statistics show that the Non-religious sector of the population is growing rather rapidly.

                              Atheism is a religion whether they like it or not.
                              Explain how atheism is a religion for me.

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