Union kills the Twinkie

[4eyedwillie]

]They're not equals.[/B] One set works for a union, one works in the free market. Like I said before you if can convince management to take a pay cut then that's a good thing - and it was justified. However, it probably wouldn't work. Management and the union workers are different, they can't be compared using the same mentality, it's a common mistake blue collar works make.

If you don't treat them as equals then your company will only succeed in spite of it's self. Your attitude is the biggest problem that corporate america has GOT to get over if american companies are ever going to succeed like they did in the 70's and 80's

[CJ]

Nope you were assuming everyone in the company was in the bakers union. They're not.
There are 6700 people in the teamsters union there and that is the largest union so the number of bakers is probably around 6000.

If I'm not mistaken the teamsters came to an agreement with Hostess and agreed to keep the company alive.

[DON SVO]

Nope you were assuming everyone in the company was in the bakers union. They're not.
There are 6700 people in the teamsters union there and that is the largest union so the number of bakers is probably around 6000.

You're missing the point... NO ONE took a pay cut because of the bakers, the entire company was asked to take a pay cut. You can't single out just the bakers.

[4eyedwillie]

I said my numbers were low.

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post=f2d05306-bb26-4e35-9eb4-47f4b4902a56

This is a quick one, but the first paragraph details a lot of what I said including being an outside hire and not affecting the Hostess bottom line.



That is completely speculative. The current CEO has been in place less than 9 months. You cannot expect a company to completely 180* after 10+ years of mismanagement.

Doesn't sound speculative to me

[bcoop]

What is wrong with treating your people as equals who can make or break you just as easily as a bad decision on your part? If BOTH sides are pulling the company will succeed no matter what happens. If only one is pulling and the other is being run over then it can only succeed in-spite of it's self.

Because people aren't always equals. I likely can't make a living doing what you do, and you likely can't make a living doing what I do. That's just the way it is. My bad decisions will likely get me fired. A grunt's bad decisions don't involve the amount of money my bad decisions would. I know personally of several people that don't even deserve to have a job, because they can't do any job worth a shit. They exist, solely because as Al would say, "The world needs ditch diggers too." They are warm bodies. Nothing more.


As harsh as this sounds, all people are not created equal. Many people lack intelligence. Many people lack motivation. Many people lack experience. Many people are not willing to get outside of their comfort zone. Unions take away the motivation to succeed. Or at the very least, the motivation to improve yourself and move up. If you are smarter than the rest, guess what? You're still making the same money, and get the same benefits as the lazy fucker that "works" next to you. You're keeping him in a job. Life is, and always has been about the survival of the fittest. So where is the motivation? Tensions between management and unions also discourage moving in to management. This is a great move, professionally. But the unions discourage it, and talk shit about those that cross the fence. So again, where is the motivation? Where is the competition? Just like in every business, there is competition. Within each of those businesses, there is competition among employees. You man up and produce, and do it better, and more efficiently than your coworkers, or you get passed over by the competition that kicks your ass every day. This doesn't exist when the union is involved.

[CJ]

[/B]

Doesn't sound speculative to me

It's irrelevant since the bakers voted to kill the company. Let's say the management was stupid and hurt the company. They lost their jobs and were replaced because they were incompetent. The new management took over, proposed the necessary changes, the bakers union refused, the company died. So the 10+ years of mismanagement are irrelevant.

[4eyedwillie]

You're missing the point... NO ONE took a pay cut because of the bakers, the entire company was asked to take a pay cut. You can't single out just the bakers.

BUT the company shutdown because those 6000 people didn't agree to the cut everyone else took the cut. So you can only look at their numbers in this context

[FreightTrain]

CJ you're pretty smart for a bank teller. I guess you need to send old Warren Buffett an email and tell him he's doing it wrong. He needs to sell every business he owns that has a union because they can't make a profit and are losing him billions a year.


Sorry guys, but the resumes in this thread are a little thin. For all you're knowledge and experience I'd expect people to have done better for themselves. Don't tell me I'm talking to alot of pot smokers that have the world figured it but are to lazy to do anything about it. I know I'm a piss ant grunt and I like it on the bottom. Think it has a little to do with the fact that I make more money than the guys 10 management spots above me.

[CJ]

CJ you're pretty smart for a bank teller. I guess you need to send old Warren Buffett an email and tell him he's doing it wrong. He needs to sell every business he owns that has a union because they can't make a profit and are losing him billions a year.


Sorry guys, but the resumes in this thread are a little thin. For all you're knowledge and experience I'd expect people to have done better for themselves. Don't tell me I'm talking to alot of pot smokers that have the world figured it but are to lazy to do anything about it. I know I'm a piss ant grunt and I like it on the bottom. Think it has a little to do with the fact that I make more money than the guys 10 management spots above me.

Ah, so we're all too stupid to criticize you. Ignorance in it's highest form. Yes, you are a piss ant grunt because of your ignorance, and you're most likely going to stay there considering how you deal with people you don't agree with. You're not worth what you make, it's pretty clear you know it also. It's not what you make, it's what you contribute, and you contribute ignorance. I will use you as an example to others about union mentality, you've helped me understand a little bit more.

[4eyedwillie]

You're missing the point... NO ONE took a pay cut because of the bakers, the entire company was asked to take a pay cut. You can't single out just the bakers.

Why not? They could conceivably have said ok you can keep the pay go back to work and they would have. Then the company would still be here.
Would it be fair to the others? Not a bit but using the accepted wisdom of this site they would have still had a job. You have to look at the group that caused the shutdown when you look at numbers.

[FreightTrain]

LOL @ Unions saving money. Unions in my industry have caused price increases, in some cases twice a year, every year since 2008. Even though, for the most part, raw material costs are down. That's why every union plant we represent is being shut the fuck down, and moved. Companies are tired of being held hostage. They are tired of prices being driven up so much due to union labor, that they can no longer compete price wise, with non union manufacturers.

LOl you can't be serious are you. The price of steel, copper, and aluminum is cheaper by your standards. Let's not talk about gas prices and how shipping has gone through the roof since 2008. Yea lets blame the price increases on the union. Sounds legit.

[CJ]

Why not? They could conceivably have said ok you can keep the pay go back to work and they would have. Then the company would still be here.
Would it be fair to the others? Not a bit but using the accepted wisdom of this site they would have still had a job. You have to look at the group that caused the shutdown when you look at numbers.

It doesn't work like that. This is a business. They don't stay in business to lose money. I hope you're not serious.

[CJ]

LOl you can't be serious are you. The price of steel, copper, and aluminum is cheaper by your standards. Let's not talk about gas prices and how shipping has gone through the roof since 2008. Yea lets blame the price increases on the union. Sounds legit.

Notice he ignores the challenge to prove unions save money.

[DON SVO]

BUT the company shutdown because those 6000 people didn't agree to the cut everyone else took the cut. So you can only look at their numbers in this context

Bullshit. The cuts were COMPANY WIDE. The cuts would have amounted to over $30MM. Since the fucking selfish baker Nazis refused to work, EVERYONE got canned. You can't count pay cuts from just the bakers, since that never existed. How is this difficult to understand? It's like me offering to sell you a car with a $10,000 discount &you don't buy it. I still offered the $10,000 discount whether you took it or not.

Why not? They could conceivably have said ok you can keep the pay go back to work and they would have. Then the company would still be here.
Would it be fair to the others? Not a bit but using the accepted wisdom of this site they would have still had a job. You have to look at the group that caused the shutdown when you look at numbers.

You have to look at the COMPANY and it's needs, not just the bakers. Your inability to grasp financials is infuriating.

[talisman]

This has become monumentally hilarious.