I never got into the flat tax debate

[Photonfanatic]

I never actually got into the flat tax debate. I must admit that I don't know all the advantages, and disadvantages of having a flat, national tax. I was hoping someone here could kinda line it out for me.

At face value, it seems to hold some pretty strong appeal. I mean if what if they made it written in stone, that no american shall ever have say... more than 13% of his income taken from him by any government institution of any type. This covers all state and local governments. So basically, uncle sam is allowed to take 6.5%, and the state gets the other 6.5%. Sounds nice to begin with. But I'm sure there are very good counter points for this.

But that would be vs, what, at least 25% that they rob from us now? In many cases its more like 35%. That shit gets my blood boiling. I can see exactly why wars have been fought over it.

[The King]

It would be equitable across all income levels, instead of the "rich" subsidizing the "poor".

[Denny]

Taxing a person's income is unconstitutional. Period.

Article 4 Section 4 states that government within the United States are to be of a Republican form. Meaning all individual rights are to be protected. The right to own and protect property is one of those basic inherent rights. When the government takes our money and gives it to someone else, then that IS NOT a Republic, it is a Democracy. This is why direct taxes are unconstitutional. Research what the founders had to say about Democracies. Our treasonous representatives even proclaim that we are a Democracy. Democracies are self destructive, we are seeing that now.

[SlowLX]

Taxing a person's income is unconstitutional. Period.

Article 4 Section 4 states that government within the United States are to be of a Republican form. Meaning all individual rights are to be protected. The right to own and protect property is one of those basic inherent rights. When the government takes our money and gives it to someone else, then that IS NOT a Republic, it is a Democracy. This is why direct taxes are unconstitutional. Research what the founders had to say about Democracies. Our treasonous representatives even proclaim that we are a Democracy. Democracies are self destructive, we are seeing that now.

You might want to go back in time a 100 years and stop the 16th Amendment from being passed then.

[jw33]

Tax me for what I consume, not what I earn. I'm all for it. Ron Paul is a nut. OK, it's out there.

[Photonfanatic]

So basically, we can't have a flat tax because its unconstitutional. So they made the workaround.

[OldGuysRule]

But that would be vs, what, at least 25% that they rob from us now? In many cases its more like 35%. That shit gets my blood boiling. I can see exactly why wars have been fought over it.

Income tax really isn't "35%" this is the marginal. I'm taxed:

The first 16,750 I'm taxed at 10%
The amount between 16,751 and 68,000 I'm taxed at 15%
The amount between 68,001 and 137,300 I'm taxed at 25%
The amount between 137,301 and 209,250 I'm taxed at 28%
The amount between 209,251 and 373,650 I'm taxed at 33%
The amount above 373,651 I'm taxed at 35%

For 2010 my federal income tax rate averaged out across the spectrum will be about 29% this year. Add in social security (I pay both sides) and medicare (I pay both sides) and it goes up to about 35%. Add in property tax it goes up to about 37%. Add in sales tax for another 1% or 2% so just a hair under 40%.

I also pay 6.2% on the income of my employees up to 106,800 for social security and 1.45% for medicare for all my employees regardless of their income. So all in all probably another 5-6% out of my pocket which would have been profit so about 44-45% of my potential income goes to the feds, state, local governments.

Any flat tax under 29% I'm ok with. Those with a lower income would get screwed.

[Sgt Beavis]

The biggest advantage to a flat tax is its simplicity. You file your taxes on a single card. You get NO DEDUCTIONS at all. But the same goes for businesses and the rich. They don't get any loopholes.

However, as Old Guy said, the poor would be fucked.

IMO the FAIR tax would be better than even a flat tax. It is basically a type of sales tax. The price of EVERYTHING (goods AND services) would go up, but you would also no longer have to deal with a withholding tax. You would get your full pay. Also, you only get taxed for what you spend. If you don't spend, then you're not taxed. The only exception is food. Everyone would get a monthly rebate of a certain amount based on how many people are in their family. This is to refund taxes on essentials like food. the rebate is fairly easy to administer because it is based on the number of family members and not income..

A few advantages (there are a ton of them but I don't want to write a book):

Illegals would be forced to pay taxes but they wouldn't get ANY rebate because you have to have a legit social security number..

Saving money would now be highly encouraged.

No taxes on investment income.. more people encouraged to invest..

No over seas tax shelters.. corporations would be encouraged to bring their money back to the US..

You get to decide if you want to pay taxes or not.. if you don't want to pay taxes, then buy less....


But the big downside is that the price of everything goes up in a major way..

[BP]

Any flat tax under 29% I'm ok with. Those with a lower income would get screwed.

Especially the ones that get back considerably more than they pay in. It's great, work for cash only (while collecting unemployment possibly) while your wife makes $300 a week at the gas station and the federal government will not only refund 100% of anything your wife contributed but as long as you have 3 kids you'll also get $5,567 dollars on top courtesy of everyone else.

It's a sad fact but some people are lazy and if they don't have to do anything they won't. The fact that the tax code gives them an incentive to be even lazier is just ridiculous to me.

[OldGuysRule]

Saving money would now be highly encouraged.

That is my fear. We can't all be savers and investors. We need people who spend more than they make in this country to allow us savers and investors to flourish.

[AnthonyS]

Especially the ones that get back considerably more than they pay in. It's great, work for cash only (while collecting unemployment possibly) while your wife makes $300 a week at the gas station and the federal government will not only refund 100% of anything your wife contributed but as long as you have 3 kids you'll also get $5,567 dollars on top courtesy of everyone else.

It's a sad fact but some people are lazy and if they don't have to do anything they won't. The fact that the tax code gives them an incentive to be even lazier is just ridiculous to me.

This is why our government is doomed to failure. It literally encourages the lazy to quit their jobs and do nothing. It does it to the detriment of anyone willing to work.

Redistribution of wealth is a ponzi scheme based on theft that simply cannot be self sustaining.

Madoff goes to jail for his ponzi scheme, but Congress pats themselves on the back for theirs..... both are wrong from any perspective, but one is "legal."

[SlowLX]

The biggest advantage to a flat tax is its simplicity. You file your taxes on a single card. You get NO DEDUCTIONS at all. But the same goes for businesses and the rich. They don't get any loopholes.

However, as Old Guy said, the poor would be fucked.

IMO the FAIR tax would be better than even a flat tax. It is basically a type of sales tax. The price of EVERYTHING (goods AND services) would go up, but you would also no longer have to deal with a withholding tax. You would get your full pay. Also, you only get taxed for what you spend. If you don't spend, then you're not taxed. The only exception is food. Everyone would get a monthly rebate of a certain amount based on how many people are in their family. This is to refund taxes on essentials like food. the rebate is fairly easy to administer because it is based on the number of family members and not income..

A few advantages (there are a ton of them but I don't want to write a book):

Illegals would be forced to pay taxes but they wouldn't get ANY rebate because you have to have a legit social security number..

Saving money would now be highly encouraged.

No taxes on investment income.. more people encouraged to invest..

No over seas tax shelters.. corporations would be encouraged to bring their money back to the US..

You get to decide if you want to pay taxes or not.. if you don't want to pay taxes, then buy less....


But the big downside is that the price of everything goes up in a major way..

The poor still effectively take a Fucking on this

[kingjason]

The poor still effectively take a Fucking on this

Nope they get credits for essentials up to like 30k or something. Fair Tax is the best solution ever and is catching on. The IRS is a big cluster fuck and a major waste of tax dollars.

[SlowLX]

Nope they get credits for essentials up to like 30k or something. Fair Tax is the best solution ever and is catching on. The IRS is a big cluster fuck and a major waste of tax dollars.

I'm cool with that. I haven't read up on it and was basically going off the sales tax premise. If the poor can get enough credits to make the system equitable I'm all for it.

[BP]

The only exception is food. Everyone would get a monthly rebate of a certain amount based on how many people are in their family. This is to refund taxes on essentials like food. the rebate is fairly easy to administer because it is based on the number of family members and not income

Non prepared foods aren't taxed anyways, at least not in Texas or most other states. People have lived off of flour, milk and eggs for years. Poor people should either learn how to make due with what they have or figure out a way to make some money. Don't rely on the government to feed your kids.