Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Imagine There'e No Heaven

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Imagine There'e No Heaven

    It's easy if you try. Imagine us going on as a species with the blinders off? What could we accomplish if we stopped killing each other over fiction?


    Interesting article.

    Over the past few centuries, science can be said to have gradually chipped away at the traditional grounds for believing in God. Much of what once seemed mysterious — the existence of humanity, the life-bearing perfection of Earth, the workings of the universe — can now be explained by biology, astronomy, physics and other domains of science.

    Although cosmic mysteries remain, Sean Carroll, a theoretical cosmologist at the California Institute of Technology, says there's good reason to think science will ultimately arrive at a complete understanding of the universe that leaves no grounds for God whatsoever.

    Carroll argues that God's sphere of influence has shrunk drastically in modern times, as physics and cosmology have expanded in their ability to explain the origin and evolution of the universe. "As we learn more about the universe, there's less and less need to look outside it for help," he told Life's Little Mysteries.

    He thinks the sphere of supernatural influence will eventually shrink to nil. But could science really eventually explain everything?
    Beginning of time

    Gobs of evidence have been collected in favor of the Big Bang model of cosmology, or the notion that the universe expanded from a hot, infinitely dense state to its current cooler, more expansive state over the course of 13.7 billion years. Cosmologists can model what happened from 10^-43 seconds after the Big Bang until now, but the split-second before that remains murky. Some theologians have tried to equate the moment of the Big Bang with the description of the creation of the world found in the Bible and other religious texts; they argue that something — i.e., God — must have initiated the explosive event.

    However, in Carroll's opinion, progress in cosmology will eventually eliminate any perceived need for a Big Bang trigger-puller.

    As he explained in a recent article in the "Blackwell Companion to Science and Christianity" (Wiley-Blackwell, 2012), a foremost goal of modern physics is to formulate a working theory that describes the entire universe, from subatomic to astronomical scales, within a single framework. Such a theory, called "quantum gravity," will necessarily account for what happened at the moment of the Big Bang. Some versions of quantum gravity theory that have been proposed by cosmologists predict that the Big Bang, rather than being the starting point of time, was just "a transitional stage in an eternal universe," in Carroll's words. For example, one model holds that the universe acts like a balloon that inflates and deflates over and over under its own steam. If, in fact, time had no beginning, this shuts the book on Genesis.

    Other versions of quantum gravity theory currently being explored by cosmologists predict that time did start at the Big Bang. But these versions of events don't cast a role for God either. Not only do they describe the evolution of the universe since the Big Bang, but they also account for how time was able to get underway in the first place. As such, these quantum gravity theories still constitute complete, self-contained descriptions of the history of the universe. "Nothing in the fact that there is a first moment of time, in other words, necessitates that an external something is required to bring the universe about at that moment," Carroll wrote.

    Another way to put it is that contemporary physics theories, though still under development and awaiting future experimental testing, are turning out to be capable of explaining why Big Bangs occur, without the need for a supernatural jumpstart. As Alex Filippenko, an astrophysicist at the University of California, Berkeley, said in a conference talk earlier this year, "The Big Bang could've occurred as a result of just the laws of physics being there. With the laws of physics, you can get universes."\

    But there are other potential grounds for God. Physicists have observed that many of the physical constants that define our universe, from the mass of the electron to the density of dark energy, are eerily perfect for supporting life. Alter one of these constants by a hair, and the universe becomes unrecognizable. "For example, if the mass of the neutron were a bit larger (in comparison to the mass of the proton) than its actual value, hydrogen would not fuse into deuterium and conventional stars would be impossible," Carroll said. And thus, so would life as we know it. [7 Theories on the Origin of Life]
    Theologians often seize upon the so-called "fine-tuning" of the physical constants as evidence that God must have had a hand in them; it seems he chose the constants just for us. But contemporary physics explains our seemingly supernatural good luck in a different way.

    Some versions of quantum gravity theory, including string theory, predict that our life-giving universe is but one of an infinite number of universes that altogether make up the multiverse. Among these infinite universes, the full range of values of all the physical constants are represented, and only some of the universes have values for the constants that enable the formation of stars, planets and life as we know it. We find ourselves in one of the lucky universes (because where else?). [Parallel Universes Explained in 200 Words]
    Some theologians counter that it is far simpler to invoke God than to postulate the existence of infinitely many universes in order to explain our universe's life-giving perfection. To them, Carroll retorts that the multiverse wasn't postulated as a complicated way to explain fine-tuning. On the contrary, it follows as a natural consequence of our best, most elegant theories.

    Once again, if or when these theories prove correct, "a multiverse happens, whether you like it or not," he wrote. And there goes God's hand in things.

    Another role for God is as a raison d'être for the universe. Even if cosmologists manage to explain how the universe began, and why it seems so fine-tuned for life, the question might remain why there is something as opposed to nothing. To many people, the answer to the question is God. According to Carroll, this answer pales under scrutiny. There can be no answer to such a question, he says.

    "Most scientists … suspect that the search for ultimate explanations eventually terminates in some final theory of the world, along with the phrase 'and that's just how it is,'" Carroll wrote. People who find this unsatisfying are failing to treat the entire universe as something unique — "something for which a different set of standards is appropriate." A complete scientific theory that accounts for everything in the universe doesn't need an external explanation in the same way that specific things within the universe need external explanations. In fact, Carroll argues, wrapping another layer of explanation (i.e., God) around a self-contained theory of everything would just be an unnecessary complication. (The theory already works without God.)

    Judged by the standards of any other scientific theory, the "God hypothesis" does not do very well, Carroll argues. But he grants that "the idea of God has functions other than those of a scientific hypothesis."

    Psychology research suggests that belief in the supernatural acts as societal glue and motivates people to follow the rules; further, belief in the afterlife helps people grieve and staves off fears of death.

    "We're not designed at the level of theoretical physics," Daniel Kruger, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Michigan, told LiveScience last year. What matters to most people "is what happens at the human scale, relationships to other people, things we experience in a lifetime."

  • #2
    i dont give a shit if there is a heaven or not. I dont like a world without God......i also dont like a world without science. It is not hard to believe in both if you try. Just stay away from organized religion, pay respect to whatever made everything, and always continue to try and educate ourselves in the universe. simple

    And it's not the Christians you have to worry about killing people over religion anymore. it is those gents that think towels make good hats.
    May God give us strength and courage in the time of our darkest hours.
    Semper Fi

    Comment


    • #3
      Imagining a world without heaven is easy. A world without heaven, or a god/s, is indistinguishable from one with.

      This is easily demonstrated by the fact that people continue to believe in all sorts of nonsense, regardless of the evidence, and nearly all of that nonsense is mutually exclusive.

      Originally posted by Jester
      And it's not the Christians you have to worry about killing people over religion anymore.
      I'd say the people of Norway would disagree with you.
      Scientists do not coddle ideas. They crash test them. They run them into a brick wall at 60 miles per hour and then examine the pieces.

      If the idea is sound, the pieces will be that of the wall.

      Comment


      • #4
        God still loves the Hatter (with 3 T's for some fucked up reason) and Eric too, I think.

        Comment


        • #5
          "Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao …
          The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
          The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
          Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!"- Vox Day

          And like Denny said, Hattter, Jesus does love you.
          May God give us strength and courage in the time of our darkest hours.
          Semper Fi

          Comment


          • #6
            I would rather believe in heaven and there not be one, than not believe in heaven and there be one.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by krazy kris View Post
              I would rather believe in heaven and there not be one, than not believe in heaven and there be one.


              lol

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by talisman View Post
                lol
                its almost like a bad bumper sticker!

                god bless.
                It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men -Frederick Douglass

                Comment


                • #9
                  1. If religion disappeared, we'd find 1001 other reasons to kill each other. Money, women...etc

                  2. If there is no heaven/hell, we're just worm food and cease to exist. Nothing anyone can do about it.

                  Edit: ...and killing solely over religion is stupid in my opinion.
                  Last edited by ceyko; 09-19-2012, 07:04 AM.
                  Originally posted by MR EDD
                  U defend him who use's racial slurs like hes drinking water.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Do you have to believe in heaven to be admitted in to heaven?

                    What if a person has lived their life being good and doing good for others yet doesn't believe in God. Would they reach the gates of heaven and be turned away?

                    Sent from my Galaxy S III

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RCITNet View Post
                      Do you have to believe in heaven to be admitted in to heaven?

                      What if a person has lived their life being good and doing good for others yet doesn't believe in God. Would they reach the gates of heaven and be turned away?

                      Sent from my Galaxy S III
                      I believe you'd be fine - but I'm thinking the hardcore bible thumpers would disagree.
                      Originally posted by MR EDD
                      U defend him who use's racial slurs like hes drinking water.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ELVIS View Post
                        its almost like a bad bumper sticker!

                        god bless.


                        Almost? I see you're in a generous mood this morning!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by talisman View Post
                          Almost? I see you're in a generous mood this morning!
                          i think it's the Jesus!

                          god bless.
                          It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men -Frederick Douglass

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jester View Post
                            "Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao …
                            The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
                            The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
                            Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation!"- Vox Day
                            I’m not exactly sure what point you’re trying to convey with the above quote. It seems that you’re trying to state that atheists can do terrible things. I would not disagree with that statement. Atheists can do terrible things, the same as everyone else. However, the quote above has a number of problems in its reasoning.

                            It was wise to leave out that creation.com was your source considering that they have no academic validity or demonstrable intellectual honesty as a resource.

                            Regardless, for the sake of discussion, I’m willing to concede that this programmer is a better historian than… well, historians.

                            What he has failed to do in his tirade is demonstrate when, at any point, any of the deaths he references above were done in the name of atheism. The link I presented is an incident in which the perpetrator has stated that he performed his murderous act in the name of Christianity, in the same way that the Muslims who attached the Libyan embassy stated that they did so in the name of Islam. He has demonstrated nothing beyond his assertion that these people are atheists and they did bad things. Again, for the sake of the discussion, I won’t touch on whether or not his numbers are accurate. If his assertion is that atheists can be evil, again, I’ll agree wholeheartedly. He just has a long way to go before he can demonstrate that any of this was done in the name of atheism. Ultimately, he has demonstrated correlation based on the data provided. What he has not done, is even shown that any causation exists.

                            The common example of this flaw in reasoning is: “Both Hitler and Stalin are mass murderers, both also had mustaches. Therefore, all people who have mustaches are mass murderers.” Surely you can see how the latter doesn’t necessarily follow the former. Sure, people with mustaches could be mass murderers, but there is no reason to think that they are.

                            His entire assertion is that when an atheist leader’s orders cause a death, it is the result of atheism. If we accept that, then apply it to the opposite side of the coin the picture changes drastically. This would mean that nearly every death cause or ordered by a governmental action is theistic; of which Christians are a subset of. This radically changes the numbers his is presenting. Especially when you consider the fact that he is comparing the actions of a group of 52 people to the actions of any individual.

                            So, even if we take what he says at face value, his argument does not stand on when applied beyond his hen pecked sample nor does his conclusion follow that these people’s atheism led to their actions. All this before any of his other claims are scrutinized.
                            Originally posted by Denny View Post
                            God still loves the Hatter (with 3 T's for some fucked up reason) and Eric too, I think.
                            Originally posted by Jester
                            And like Denny said, Hattter, Jesus does love you.
                            There is only the Emperor, and he is our shield and protector.
                            Originally posted by krazy kris View Post
                            I would rather believe in heaven and there not be one, than not believe in heaven and there be one.
                            I’ll never understand why people find Pascal’s Wager is so convincing. It has no intellectual weight considering that it’s not properly taking all the variables into consideration. Given the odds, you are far more likely to wind up in another religion’s hell than your own heaven due to your heretical (in the eyes of nearly every other religion) belief in the genie of Abraham. Especially considering that there is no more evidence for your favored specter than any of theirs.
                            Scientists do not coddle ideas. They crash test them. They run them into a brick wall at 60 miles per hour and then examine the pieces.

                            If the idea is sound, the pieces will be that of the wall.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hattter, you always deliver us the same horse shit over and over and love to argue......but when someone actually asks you what created everything, you clam right the fuck up or give us your typical google delivered crapola.

                              So.....WHAT created everything? What started it all?

                              I mean, you claim God to be nonsense, so lets hear the answer.

                              and for fuck sake you dont have to butcher and analyze every single quote you happen to answer and dissect every sentence. Just sum it up.
                              Last edited by Jester; 09-20-2012, 12:09 PM.
                              May God give us strength and courage in the time of our darkest hours.
                              Semper Fi

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X