Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

[Forever_frost]

You want to play that game? "when Christians have control over Jews" Holocaust. "when other religions have something Christianity wants" Crusades. "when Christians have control over other Christians" dark ages, and let's not forget the Salem witch trials.


Have I read cover to cover? No, but I've read quite a bit. And the bible is both the new and old testament, not just the new testament.

Tell me the last time Christians got together and attacked someone for their beliefs. Christians are bound by the New Testament. If you don't understand the NT, you aren't in a position to speak on it. Kind of like arguing mechanics with someone who's never read about an internal combustion engine.

[Forever_frost]

You want to play that game? "when Christians have control over Jews" Holocaust. "when other religions have something Christianity wants" Crusades. "when Christians have control over other Christians" dark ages, and let's not forget the Salem witch trials.


Have I read cover to cover? No, but I've read quite a bit. And the bible is both the new and old testament, not just the new testament.

And don't worry, you provided pretty much a weak attempt at moral relativism. Show me multiply cited sources where Christians kill atheists for being atheists

[racrguy]

Another interesting point: When was the last time you saw an atheist look at any religion and say "Hey, they're exercising their rights. Good on them." I can pull hundreds of lawsuits from atheists against usually Christians to have Christmas scenes removed, prayer removed from school, 10 commandments from courtrooms and so forth.

As far as it goes, why is it atheists seem driven...one would say religiously, to discredit anyone who believes? No, it's never "Hey dude, you believe a guy died on a chunk of wood for your sins. Good on you." No, it's "OMG! You believe in a flying purple monster! Let me tell you how stupid you are and your dearly held beliefs are."

If you believed in the constitution as much as you do, you'd understand the lawsuits. I, and any other atheist with a brain, will fight for your right to believe anything you want, but it's a double edged sword. We can and do say what we think is stupid, and we request that you keep prayer where it's supposed to be. Not in the government, in ANY way. Be it in courtrooms, school lead prayer, or government sanctioned Christmas scenes.

[Forever_frost]

If you believed in the constitution as much as you do, you'd understand the lawsuits. I, and any other atheist with a brain, will fight for your right to believe anything you want, but it's a double edged sword. We can and do say what we think is stupid, and we request that you keep prayer where it's supposed to be. Not in the government, in ANY way. Be it in courtrooms, school lead prayer, or government sanctioned Christmas scenes.

I do understand it. Freedom OF religion, not from it. Anything else?

[Maddhattter]

Again, I mentioned experience with atheists. My experience. I thought that's what we were talking about.

We were talking about you using factors that are unrelated to atheism to claim that atheism does not "hold up". At least, that is what I was responding to.

Want to see what atheists do to Christians if they have power?


China Jails House Church Christians; Suspends Prison Sentence Christian Lawyer
Tuesday, December 26, 2006 (12:00 am)

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By BosNewsLife News Center

BEIJING, CHINA (BosNewsLife) — Most, if not all, eight prominent house church Christians in China's eastern Zhejiang province prepared to spend Christmas behind bars Saturday, December 23, after they were sentenced to prison sentences of up to 3.5 years, fellow believers said.

The People's Court of Xiaoshan District in the provincial capital Hangzhou city sentenced the believers late Friday, December 22 after an "almost 12-hour marathon pre-Christmas trial," said religious rights group China Aid Association (CAA).

They were accused of inciting violent resistance to the law after they protested the government's destruction of a church. The seven men and one woman from Zhejiang were arrested after about 3,000 Christians in Xiaoshan, a prospering commercial suburb of the provincial capital Hangzhou, demonstrated against the demolition of their mega-church in July.

http://www.worthynews.com/1205-china...ristian-lawyer

Again, this can happen. I've not disagreed with that. However, countries like Sweden, reported to be one of the most atheistic nations in the world, show no sign of this persecution.

This is due to the fact that atheism has not been shown to be the cause of the above actions, as China seems to leave the buddists, taoists and numerous other local folk religions alone. So long as they follow the law of their land. Regardless of whether or not we, as Americans, agree with them.

Also, all evidence indicates that the reason for the persecution of christianity is not atheism, but as an over blown response to the Taiping Rebellion.

[Forever_frost]

Exactly, they leave them alone but not Christianity. So, why does Christianity offend atheists more than anything?

[racrguy]

Tell me the last time Christians got together and attacked someone for their beliefs. Christians are bound by the New Testament. If you don't understand the NT, you aren't in a position to speak on it. Kind of like arguing mechanics with someone who's never read about an internal combustion engine.

If you understood the NT then you'd also know that you are bound by the "old laws." why are you discussing the bible again?

And don't worry, you provided pretty much a weak attempt at moral relativism. Show me multiply cited sources where Christians kill atheists for being atheists

http://www.google.com/search?q=soldier+kills+man+for+being+atheist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

I do understand it. Freedom OF religion, not from it. Anything else?

Clearly you don't.

Exactly, they leave them alone but not Christianity. So, why does Christianity offend atheists more than anything?

You didn't read a fuckin' thing.

[Maddhattter]

Another interesting point: When was the last time you saw an atheist look at any religion and say "Hey, they're exercising their rights. Good on them."

This whole statement is irrelevant. You might as well have asked "When was the last time you saw an person look at any other and say "Hey, they're exercising their rights. Good on them."

I can pull hundreds of lawsuits from atheists against usually Christians to have Christmas scenes removed, prayer removed from school, 10 commandments from courtrooms and so forth.

This "usually christian" thing is a red herring. The only reason christians are the ones "targeted" is because the majority of people in America are christian.

Just to make a note here, most of the lawsuits I've ever seen that cover any of the above are issued by the ACLU. The organization that protects the rights of theists when they are acting within the bounds of the law.

As far as it goes, why is it atheists seem driven...one would say religiously, to discredit anyone who believes? No, it's never "Hey dude, you believe a guy died on a chunk of wood for your sins. Good on you." No, it's "OMG! You believe in a flying purple monster! Let me tell you how stupid you are and your dearly held beliefs are."

Sorry, people on this very board discredit this. No reason for any further consideration.

[Binky]

Christianity doesnt offend, Christians/muslims/taoists, etc offend when they refuse to accept that belief (or denial, lack of, contrary, whatever) is a personal thing and not subject to their percieved authority.

Take it on another vein - someone comes up to you and says your house needs to be blue becuase they believe all houses should be blue. Do you repaint your house or tell the person to get fucked?

[ThreeFingerPete]

You want to play that game? "when Christians have control over Jews" Holocaust. "when other religions have something Christianity wants" Crusades. "when Christians have control over other Christians" dark ages, and let's not forget the Salem witch trials.


Have I read cover to cover? No, but I've read quite a bit. And the bible is both the new and old testament, not just the new testament.

I suggest you look into what the New Testament is all about if you're going to press the matter. Christians are not bound by the laws of the old testament. I'll let a believer jump in on that one.

If you understood the NT then you'd also know that you are bound by the "old laws." why are you discussing the bible again

Christianity doesnt offend, Christians/muslims/taoists, etc offend when they refuse to accept that belief (or denial, lack of, contrary, whatever) is a personal thing and not subject to their percieved authority.

People of any belief can be overbearing in their fanaticism. In this case, I know exactly what behaviors racrguy detests so much, but that is not "Christianity", it's bigots, zealots, etc all hiding behind their deluded interpretation of what their holy book says. That doesn't make their belief system bad, it only gives them extra ammunition to bombard you with bullshit.

Take it on another vein - someone comes up to you and says your house needs to be blue becuase they believe all houses should be blue. Do you repaint your house or tell the person to get fucked?

The problem that I see is that so many atheists are 100% militant, and are ready to completely dismiss "Christians" based on their slights. They want to lump millions of people in with the absolute biggest retards in the bunch. Want to pin the tail on the donkey? Try Catholicism, and they can't even begin to tell you that they believe in the bible. They just make shit up as they go along to keep their believers subjugated.

I also wonder why I don't see nearly as many Atheist vs Islam discussions.

Good Christians (in my experience) are good people, as are many good Mormons, good Muslims, many atheists,etc. If the book that they put faith in is what helps them on their path, teaches them how to treat their fellow man, and how to get through life, then good for them! I don't care if they are worshiping the flying spaghetti monster. If they are better people because of it, and they don't use it to try to control other people, then more power to them.

[Jester]

Outsider's perspective: This is where your attitude gets REALLY hard to embrace. Try respecting the idea that not every Christian is the epitome of what you hate about "Christians". They choose to believe in something that you don't, but they do still deserve a bit of respect. In fact, if they live the life that the bible tells them to, they're probably pretty decent people!

Christian's believe that they are god's children. Which would explain why they feel the need to ask him for guidance, and why he would help them.

In the bible it says plenty of times not to be a whiney little bitch who incessantly forces their faith on everyone, who ignores the problems in their life because "god will sort it out". Those are people who apparently didn't read the whole book, and instead took the parts that they wanted to and ran with it. There are a LOT of those people, but they would be just as pushy, ignorant, obtuse or foolish if it were the words of any other "god" that they were hiding behind.

good statement

[The King]

Do tell us more about the NT with respect to the "old laws" since you brought up the subject, racrhatter, especially since you obviously have a much better understanding of the subject via your google search than does Frost.

[Forever_frost]

If you understood the NT then you'd also know that you are bound by the "old laws." why are you discussing the bible again?

http://www.google.com/search?q=soldier+kills+man+for+being+atheist&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

Clearly you don't.


You didn't read a fuckin' thing.

You didn't read your own stuff did you? "It is also not yet clear if Ramirez really was an atheist, or if that was the real reason for the killing. " http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/1...ieving-in-god/

We are bound by the old laws but live under grace. That's the point of Christ. To pay for that.

[Forever_frost]

This whole statement is irrelevant. You might as well have asked "When was the last time you saw an person look at any other and say "Hey, they're exercising their rights. Good on them."




This "usually christian" thing is a red herring. The only reason christians are the ones "targeted" is because the majority of people in America are christian.

Just to make a note here, most of the lawsuits I've ever seen that cover any of the above are issued by the ACLU. The organization that protects the rights of theists when they are acting within the bounds of the law.



Sorry, people on this very board discredit this. No reason for any further consideration.

Really? Have you been reading yours and Racr's post on religion? Absolutely CANNOT ignore anything with God in it.

[Maddhattter]

Really? Have you been reading yours and Racr's post on religion? Absolutely CANNOT ignore anything with God in it.

Considering that I haven't said anything about christianity, or it's god, in this thread, your premise does not hold.

Even my initial point was to bring up the fact that I can find no source for the Benjamin Franklin quote and would like to have one provided. I, in that same post, showed how the evidence I've found indicates that he said no such thing.

I did not comment on Franklin's religious beliefs, nor did I comment on the validity of any supernatural claim.

In my second post (the one responding to you), I did nothing but clarify what atheism is. From then on, I've allowed you to guide the conversation. So, if it moves to a religious debate, that will be your doing, not mine.