Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

[racrguy]

Wrong, religion is used to control the masses only in a theocracy. Nowhere else.

"god made Adam and eve, not Adam and steve." "the bible says abortion is wrong!"

It may not be direct control, but it is thought control, and that's even worse.

[Forever_frost]

"god made Adam and eve, not Adam and steve." "the bible says abortion is wrong!"

It may not be direct control, but it is thought control, and that's even worse.

Following that train of thought, parenting is thought control

[The King]

"god made Adam and eve, not Adam and steve." "the bible says abortion is wrong!"

It may not be direct control, but it is thought control, and that's even worse.

That is why, in the cases of Judaism and Christianity, believers should read the Bible for themselves. Religion can then build upon that foundation, if the believer so chooses, without any sort of control. Important point here....."if the believer so chooses".

[SS Junk]

Philippians 2:12-13

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

[davbrucas]

Quoting the bible as a means of proving god's existence is like saying half eaten cookies on Christmas morning are proof of Santa's existence.

[SS Junk]

I am not trying to prove God exists to one who does not want to believe. The scripture is there to show that religion is not how one gets to Heaven.

[racrguy]

Umm. Scripture IS religion.

Your logic, or lack thereof, confuses me.

[Forever_frost]

Quoting the bible as a means of proving god's existence is like saying half eaten cookies on Christmas morning are proof of Santa's existence.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I avoid using scripture to argue with an atheist. To them your source material holds no value so it isn't an appropriate starting point.

[racrguy]

Thank you for understanding that Frost.

[SS Junk]

Umm. Scripture IS religion.

Your logic, or lack thereof, confuses me.

In your opinion, but to believers like myself it is the Word of God. You have faith in science data and carbon dating. I have faith that God created the world. Either way, we all share faith in some way, shape or form.

[Forever_frost]

In your opinion, but to believers like myself it is the Word of God. You have faith in science data and carbon dating. I have faith that God created the world. Either way, we all share faith in some way, shape or form.

This has actually been one of my points.

Believe in carbon dating? Yes? Can you prove it works? Not something you've read or research someone else has done. Can YOU prove it?

Do you believe Pluto exists? Can you prove it? Using what you have here and no research of anyone else, prove it. Gravity? Same thing.


I believe one of these days we'll come up with tech to actually verify God exists just like we have protons and neutrons and absolute zero. To believe He doesn't exist merely because our science hasn't gotten to the point of proving it yet is similar to saying the world is flat because no one has been to the edge yet.

[Maddhattter]

This has actually been one of my points.

Religious faith and the colloquial use of faith are defined in two different fundamentally different ways. This is why every definition of the word I've ever found has a separate definitions for the two.

It's akin to saying someone is retarded. If you say that someone with a physical or mental handicap is retarded, you are saying a very different thing than would be if you said racrguy is retarded.

An identical difference is between a scientific theory and the colloquial use of theory.

Ultimately, both of us could use the term faith but we would mean different things by it.

Believe in carbon dating? Yes? Can you prove it works? Not something you've read or research someone else has done. Can YOU prove it?

Do I believe in carbon dating? Yes. It exists.

I’ll assume you are asking if someone believes that carbon dating is a reliable form of dating objects, as it is a more relevant question to the topic. I would still say yes.

Can I prove it? Yes. Independent of the research, the process that scientists use to verify their data is documented and can be reliably reproduced. This process must stand on its own. It must also be objectively and reliably reproducible with a high accuracy.

When this process is performed, should the results I get not match up with the predicted data (and I can reliably reproduce the discrepancy), then I have shown that it does not work. The scientific community would, after verifying my data, discard the method and use one of many other methods of radiometric dating until it is shown that they are not viable predictive models any more.

Do you believe Pluto exists? Can you prove it? Using what you have here and no research of anyone else, prove it.

This one is just plain silly. Anyone with a telescope, such as myself, can do this.

Gravity? Same thing.

This one is silly as well. Everyone tests gravity all the time. So, yes. People can, and do, prove it every time they do not float off while walking.

I believe one of these days we'll come up with tech to actually verify God exists just like we have protons and neutrons and absolute zero.

This is possible. I would not deny that. However, until something can be shown to exist, there is no justification in believing it does, in fact, exist. Unless you are willing to believe something without evidence, thus entering religious faith.

Just to pick nits, absolute zero has not been verified in the way protons and neutrons have been. It is a theoretical point that, all research shows, exists but have never "seen" exist anywhere. Protons and neutrons have been actively observed to exist. In fact, the Hadron super-collider is designed to discover the fundamental particles that make up protons , neutrons, electrons, etc.

To believe He doesn't exist merely because our science hasn't gotten to the point of proving it yet is similar to saying the world is flat because no one has been to the edge yet.

Your analogy is flawed. Stating that god doesn't exist due to a lack of evidence is more like saying the earth is not flat because no one has been to the edge yet.

In my analogy, someone is making a claim. The earth is flat. Another person is stating that the claim is false. The earth is not flat due to people being unable to find the edge.

In the analogy above, could the round-earther be wrong? Of course. It is possible that the round-earther is wrong. That possibility doesn't make it reasonable to believe that the earth is flat. It would, in fact, be unreasonable to believe the earth is flat due to lack of evidence.

The same goes for the god claim. Could I, as an atheist, be wrong? Sure. There may be a god/gods. However, until there is evidence to support the god claim, it is unreasonable to believe that it is true.

[SS Junk]

Funny the double standard. Atheists scream about "Bible thumping Christians always shoving their beliefs down the throat of non-believers..." yet the opposite is what holds true. If you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, why should you care what someone else believes? Even if a Christian shares their belief and opinion about their salvation why should it bother you? What is it you are afraid of?

[Maddhattter]

Funny the double standard.

Sorry, it's not a double standard when there are demonstrable differences in the supporting structure of the claim. Nor is it a double standard when I am using the words as they are defined.

Atheists scream about "Bible thumping Christians always shoving their beliefs down the throat of non-believers..." yet the opposite is what holds true.

Actually, neither holds true. Neither christians, muslims, atheists, hindu, or buddists always proselytize.

If you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, why should you care what someone else believes? Even if a Christian shares their belief and opinion about their salvation why should it bother you? What is it you are afraid of?

What someone believes colors their actions. It also sets a precedent. If you believe something that is not supported by evidence, what is stopping you from accepting other claims without evidence?

When a christian shares their faith, I ask them to demonstrate it. My first post in this thread is asking for a source of the quote. I enter into conversation about religion only when the topic is brought up. I have not, nor do I intend to, approach someone and begin a religious conversation with no pretext. Someone else can, but this does not mean that I must agree with it.

On the question about someone's opinion about salvation, I don't care. I don't care what someone's opinion is on salvation until they can demonstrate that salvation is either required, needed or even possible within a supernatural context. I do care, as I stated above, how they came about those beliefs. I also care when people start making truth claims.

If your god exists, I want to know. Thus far, you've not met your burden of proof to demonstrate this god. You've only asserted it. If you have actual evidence, I'd love to discuss it but I think that would be a better topic for the Theology Corner. Especially considering most of these arguments and claims of supernatural existence (of anything) have been covered there already. It will also help to keep us from retreading things without the presentation of new information.

[SS Junk]

You, along with others are asking far too much for a Christian to prove "our" God exists. He's your God too. In order for you to understand what it is like to be a Christian you must study the Bible. The book of John is a good place to start. You must have an open mind and heart and you must accept Jesus Christ into your life and believe he came to this earth to die on the cross for you. After that, it's up to you to work out your own salvation. Believing in God has nothing to do with summoning the supernatural. It has to do with having a personal relationship with God. The proof comes after living your life through Christ.
My proof is what has happened in my life especially over the last 20 years. I can share the stories, however to non-believers it is dismissed as pure chance and coincidence. I happen to believe the good and bad things that have happened are from divine intervention.
The Bible is considered the Living Word. All the proof Christians need is what is written. It has been responsible for the well being and happy, productive lives of millions of Christians.