Benjamin Franklin, To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention

[racrguy]

I don't know about anyone else, but my personal frustrations are rooted in my disappointment in my fellow man. It's why I'm also a grammar & spelling nazi. I expect more out of people than this, especially intelligent people like Tx Redneck.

This, plus the arrogance of many people that think they are significant enough, should god exist, for god to take time out of its day to control, or even care about what's going on in a persons life. Prayer, and the belief in god solve no problems, nor does it accomplish anything. Fucking think about the problem and solve it yourself. Your imaginary friend isn't going to handle business for you, that's up to you to take care of.

[The King]

This, plus the arrogance of many people that think they are significant enough, should god exist, for god to take time out of its day to control, or even care about what's going on in a persons life. Prayer, and the belief in god solve no problems, nor does it accomplish anything. Fucking think about the problem and solve it yourself. Your imaginary friend isn't going to handle business for you, that's up to you to take care of.

And there folks, you have the secret to life success. Benevolently presented to you by no less than an (arrogant?) internet board genius, who knows what's better for you than you do yourself. Too bad we didn't ask for this sage advice sooner, for how have we done so well, so long, without it?

[Forever_frost]

This, plus the arrogance of many people that think they are significant enough, should god exist, for god to take time out of its day to control, or even care about what's going on in a persons life. Prayer, and the belief in god solve no problems, nor does it accomplish anything. Fucking think about the problem and solve it yourself. Your imaginary friend isn't going to handle business for you, that's up to you to take care of.

Look death in the eye and let me know if you still feel that way.

[racrguy]

Look death in the eye and let me know if you still feel that way.

The old "there's no atheist in a foxhole" line. Horseshit. This next statement may offend you, and that's not its intent, but I don't expect you to see things rationally, given the nature of your injuries.

Granted, it's not to the same degree as having someone point a gun at me on a regular basis, but I do look death in the eye, for FUN, and I still have the same outlook.

[ThreeFingerPete]

The old "there's no atheist in a foxhole" line. Horseshit. This next statement may offend you, and that's not its intent, but I don't expect you to see things rationally, given the nature of your injuries.

Granted, it's not to the same degree as having someone point a gun at me on a regular basis, but I do look death in the eye, for FUN, and I still have the same outlook.

Fucking cheap hookers isn't looking death in the eye. It is looking addiction in the eyes and gonorrhea in the crotch.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

So God's got this? Cool. I guess we don't have to do anything.

Edit: No seriously. Is this a political strategy? Leave it up to God? Or we should behave just so, and God will make things all better?

Uh i think the idea goes more like this .

Live life according to gods values and there wont be anything to make all better . Cause it will already be that way

[ThreeFingerPete]

This, plus the arrogance of many people that think they are significant enough, should god exist, for god to take time out of its day to control, or even care about what's going on in a persons life. Prayer, and the belief in god solve no problems, nor does it accomplish anything. Fucking think about the problem and solve it yourself. Your imaginary friend isn't going to handle business for you, that's up to you to take care of.

Outsider's perspective: This is where your attitude gets REALLY hard to embrace. Try respecting the idea that not every Christian is the epitome of what you hate about "Christians". They choose to believe in something that you don't, but they do still deserve a bit of respect. In fact, if they live the life that the bible tells them to, they're probably pretty decent people!

Christians believe that they are god's children. Which would explain why they feel the need to ask him for guidance, and why he would help them.

In the bible it says plenty of times not to be a whiney little bitch who incessantly forces their faith on everyone, who ignores the problems in their life because "god will sort it out". Those are people who apparently didn't read the whole book, and instead took the parts that they wanted to and ran with it. There are a LOT of those people, but they would be just as pushy, ignorant, obtuse or foolish if it were the words of any other "god" that they were hiding behind.

[YALE]

Uh i think the idea goes more like this .

Live life according to gods values and there wont be anything to make all better . Cause it will already be that way

It's kind of vain to assume you're in control of everything that affects your existence.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

Thats the beauty of it . "God" or "the bible" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it goes at it from a grass roots effort . Instead of trying to influence a government or some large group it tries to get each individul to live their life by a moral standard . Thus anyone in gubment would be bound to this and wouldnt ass rape us .

[ThreeFingerPete]

Thats the beauty of it . "God" or "the bible" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it goes at it from a grass roots effort . Instead of trying to influence a government or some large group it tries to get each individul to live their life by a moral standard . Thus anyone in gubment would be bound to this and wouldnt ass rape us .

The amount of dirty preachers would lead you to believe that's a flawed ideal.

[Maddhattter]

"All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity.

And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? Or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance?

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?"

Getting back to the OP... After searching I can find no valid source for this quote, aside from a few references of "To Colleagues at the Constitutional Convention".

When actually looking for what Benjamin said at the Constitutional convention, it turns out the answer is a great big nothing. He was too weak to actually give the speech that he wrote.

Even more problematic is the fact that James Madison took the time to transcribe the entire speech that Franklin would have given to the Constitutional Convention. It went something like this:

Mr. President

I confess that there are several parts of this constitution which I do not at present approve, but I am not sure I shall never approve them: For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged by better information, or fuller consideration, to change opinions even on important subjects, which I once thought right, but found to be otherwise. It is therefore that the older I grow, the more apt I am to doubt my own judgment, and to pay more respect to the judgment of others. Most men indeed as well as most sects in Religion, think themselves in possession of all truth, and that wherever others differ from them it is so far error. Steele a Protestant in a Dedication tells the Pope, that the only difference between our Churches in their opinions of the certainty of their doctrines is, the Church of Rome is infallible and the Church of England is never in the wrong. But though many private persons think almost as highly of their own infallibility as of that of their sect, few express it so naturally as a certain french lady, who in a dispute with her sister, said "I don't know how it happens, Sister but I meet with no body but myself, that's always in the right-Il n'y a que moi qui a toujours raison."

In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best. The opinions I have had of its errors, I sacrifice to the public good. I have never whispered a syllable of them abroad. Within these walls they were born, and here they shall die. If every one of us in returning to our Constituents were to report the objections he has had to it, and endeavor to gain partizans in support of them, we might prevent its being generally received, and thereby lose all the salutary effects & great advantages resulting naturally in our favor among foreign Nations as well as among ourselves, from our real or apparent unanimity. Much of the strength & efficiency of any Government in procuring and securing happiness to the people, depends, on opinion, on the general opinion of the goodness of the Government, as well as well as of the wisdom and integrity of its Governors. I hope therefore that for our own sakes as a part of the people, and for the sake of posterity, we shall act heartily and unanimously in recommending this Constitution (if approved by Congress & confirmed by the Conventions) wherever our influence may extend, and turn our future thoughts & endeavors to the means of having it well administred.

On the whole, Sir, I can not help expressing a wish that every member of the Convention who may still have objections to it, would with me, on this occasion doubt a little of his own infallibility, and to make manifest our unanimity, put his name to this instrument.-

So, for the sake of actually discussing the quote and it's implications, can you provide a valid source for it? Or even demonstrate it's supposed authorship?

[Forever_frost]

The old "there's no atheist in a foxhole" line. Horseshit. This next statement may offend you, and that's not its intent, but I don't expect you to see things rationally, given the nature of your injuries.

Granted, it's not to the same degree as having someone point a gun at me on a regular basis, but I do look death in the eye, for FUN, and I still have the same outlook.

You should know by now you can't offend me. Dont' worry. And everyone is entitled to their belief or lack of

[Forever_frost]

It's kind of vain to assume you're in control of everything that affects your existence.

I agree, which is why atheism doesn't hold up

[Maddhattter]

I agree, which is why atheism doesn't hold up

Atheism doesn't assume anything. It is simply a stance on one singular topic. It is a lack of belief in a deity.

[Maddhattter]

Thats the beauty of it . "God" or "the bible" or "religion" or whatever you want to call it goes at it from a grass roots effort . Instead of trying to influence a government or some large group it tries to get each individul to live their life by a moral standard . Thus anyone in gubment would be bound to this and wouldnt ass rape us .

Except that not every god, holy book, or religion has the same moral code.

Considering that your entire stance, here, is predicated on the notion that the moral code that comes from those things will protect us from being ass raped, your argument fails at it's premise.