Individual Mandate Constitutional

[Baron Von Crowder]

CBO estimates dont mean shit, really.

The truth of the matter is, you nor I nor anyone else knows what will happen with this new policy. I know what is supposed to happen and how it is supposed to work, but government plans tend to deviate from their original path.

What you arent looking at is the fact that while communism works in theory, it doesnt work in practice.

[CJ]

Furthermore, the penalty is only paid if you don't obtain health insurance. The vast majority of the country will buy insurance.

That is where the problem lies in your thought process. Either I pay the premium, or I pay the penalty, both of which are a tax and a requirement. You can call it a penalty, but by definition it is a tax. Before this legislation an individual had the option to insure themselves, and save money by not having health insurance. For instance, a 16 year old kid who wants more money to spend on his fox body. That no longer is an option. You either must pay for insurance you do not want, or you pay a penalty. Either way the lesser of the two is a tax by definition. And it is an increase in tax over the previous amount of zero. So there is where your biggest tax increase in history comes from. And it is by definition the largest in history, seeing as never before as the government compelled an individual to engage in commerce for the sheer fact of breathing.

[Durantula]

That is where the problem lies in your thought process. Either I pay the premium, or I pay the penalty, both of which are a tax and a requirement. You can call it a penalty, but by definition it is a tax. Before this legislation an individual had the option to insure themselves, and save money by not having health insurance. For instance, a 16 year old kid who wants more money to spend on his fox body. That no longer is an option. You either must pay for insurance you do not want, or you pay a penalty. Either way the lesser of the two is a tax by definition. And it is an increase in tax over the previous amount of zero. So there is where your biggest tax increase in history comes from. And it is by definition the largest in history, seeing as never before as the government compelled an individual to engage in commerce for the sheer fact of breathing.

I know it's just an example, but 16 year olds don't have to buy health insurance...

Because it's an increase over zero it's the biggest in history? That logic is so awfully ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. I understand people don't like the ruling and its subsequent consequences but frankly, the overreactions I've read in here and various other places are absurd and bordering insane. And the comments are made mostly by folks who already have insurance and don't have to pay the tax. That's not even something legitimate to bitch about.

[Forever_frost]

What you describe here is currently happening and has been for many years. The individual mandate solves this problem by forcing everyone to pay for themselves. Conservatives should ideally be pleased with this concept. "Personal responsibility" has been a GOP talking point for decades. If I remember correctly, it was actually the conservative Heritage Foundation who originally proposed the individual mandate in the 80s for this same reason. It kicks the free loaders off the wagon.

And here's the breaking of the argument. It doesn't force everyone to pay for themselves. If it did, it'd outlaw insurance and everyone would be billed. Failure to pay said bill would result in jail. Also, if you don't want to pay for insurance, you're still using the hospitals, you just get a tax that you're not going to pay on top of the hospital bill you're not going to pay.

Then you have illegals who also aren't goign to be paying for the hospital OR the tax. So no, not everyone has to pay their bill. Once more, those who are financially responsible will continue to pay for those who aren't AND a federal bureaucracy to implement it.

[Forever_frost]

And is D squared really going for the CBO? The same CBO that rated this TWICE what it initially scored it at? That CBO?

[DON SVO]

Yeah, Obama's unwillingness to call it a tax the last 2-3 years almost cost him his legislation. It's only a tax in a very narrow, technical sense but a tax is a tax. He should have just swallowed the rhetoric from the start.

However, the tax is part of the personal responsibility necessary to implement universal care. Those abusing hospital and doctor's offices without insurance are passing those costs on to the rest of us via taxes and increased insurance premiums. By forcing the uninsured into the market (or paying the penalty), we don't have to worry about paying for their health care for them.

... which renders itself moot if the amount of money we (taxpayers) is not curtailed.

Here is my problem with this "FREE" healthcare. It's a known fact that lots of the uninsured swamp our hospitals and cost us billions. If the purpose of this healthcare reform is to alleviate this burden, then the dollars we spend providing healthcare to the uninsured should be removed from the taxation pool. Will it? If it's not, then this is certainly a forced spending, i.e. a tax.

[CJ]

I know it's just an example, but 16 year olds don't have to buy health insurance...

Because it's an increase over zero it's the biggest in history? That logic is so awfully ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. I understand people don't like the ruling and its subsequent consequences but frankly, the overreactions I've read in here and various other places are absurd and bordering insane. And the comments are made mostly by folks who already have insurance and don't have to pay the tax. That's not even something legitimate to bitch about.

I'm sitting here reading your post, I've done it a few times. And the only thing I can assume is you just want to think what you think in spite of reality. If you can't see how clear of a picture I painted you're just being ignorant. I have to laugh at you saying since the previous tax rate was in fact zero, you dismiss it. As if that had any bearing at all on what we are discussing you choose to focus on it in total irrelevance and then you find the entire premise absurd in a pretty humorous fashion.

So, to clarify, my point is valid, and your retort is "it's stupid." It is the largest tax increase in history from a purely factual standpoint. I just gave you one of the easiest to understand examples and you have no rebuttal other than dismissing it out of frustration. The difference between 2013 and 2014 is you will be paying a healthcare tax, whether it is premiums or penalty. The lesser of the two is your tax increase, and the lesser of the two is a higher tax increase than ever before in our country, it is painfully simple to grasp.

[46Tbird]

I understand people don't like the ruling and its subsequent consequences but frankly, the overreactions I've read in here and various other places are absurd and bordering insane. And the comments are made mostly by folks who already have insurance and don't have to pay the tax. That's not even something legitimate to bitch about.

Employers are already getting prepared to drop insurance coverage for their employees.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304811304577367833267990666.html

In other words:
-Even more money funneled to the government in the form of a health tax
-Even more power for the government in the form of millions of newly dependent slaves to health coverage
-New powers for the government by removing any notion that the US Constitution must be followed

Your apathy and stupidity are truly terrifying. I can only hope that the Republicans are able to get four Senate seats to repeal this piece of fucking garbage. You should too.

[Vertnut]

I know it's just an example, but 16 year olds don't have to buy health insurance...

Because it's an increase over zero it's the biggest in history? That logic is so awfully ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. I understand people don't like the ruling and its subsequent consequences but frankly, the overreactions I've read in here and various other places are absurd and bordering insane. And the comments are made mostly by folks who already have insurance and don't have to pay the tax. That's not even something legitimate to bitch about.

There's no future in living like an ostrich. Unless you are one...or already sucking the government tit.

[Forever_frost]

Hey Durantula, care to debate my numbers with some of your own or are you just going to keep dismissing them?

[Forever_frost]

Yeah, your numbers don't take in the entire picture. Like I said, a right-wing site isn't going to tell the whole truth if it doesn't fit their agenda.

My source is an independent, nonpartisan fact checking website citing figures by the CBO, a nonpartisan government agency. That CBO numbers act as a reliable source in news articles, academic papers, and such. Yours wouldn't. I wonder which is correct?

Then provide me numbers contrary to mine. I'll wait. And the CBO has already adjusted Obamacare from under 1 trillion to over 2.5 trillion. That number will continue to rise. Still want to play?

And how would my numbers not stand up? They are ACTUAL numbers from the ACTUAL bill with ACTUAL page numbers

[Vertnut]

Then provide me numbers contrary to mine. I'll wait. And the CBO has already adjusted Obamacare from under 1 trillion to over 2.5 trillion. That number will continue to rise. Still want to play?

And how would my numbers not stand up? They are ACTUAL numbers from the ACTUAL bill with ACTUAL page numbers

Remember...the CBO only uses figures GIVEN BY THE ADMINISTRATION to come up with their numbers. Like a computer, the input determines the output. As numbers vary, so does the CBO 's figure.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

The list of taxed raised are correct. His (and the website's) math is wrong and assessment that this is the biggest tax increase in history (or even just American history) is a blatant lie.

Click the link I posted. It breaks the whole thing down into both the percentage of GDP the taxes will generate and how much total over various time periods.

Ill tell you what doesnt lie and thats my paycheck . All the funny math and lefty spin wont hide their lies when that number hits my check . Its coming out of my check one way or another even if not directly . They want directly even if thats not what they get at this time .

[Forever_frost]

Remember...the CBO only uses figures GIVEN BY THE ADMINISTRATION to come up with their numbers. Like a computer, the input determines the output. As numbers vary, so does the CBO 's figure.

Notice he didn't come up with a single different number?

[SMEGMA STENCH]

they never do